For a Rogue, when is feinting better than getting 2 attacks?

[Elder-Basilisk]

There's a difficulty with this highlighted in the following sentence from the expert tactician description: You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action.

Before your regular action, you haven't attacked. Therefore, your opponent isn't denied his dex bonus yet. So Expert Tactician doesn't kick in.

After your regular action, you're finished with "your next melee attack" so your opponent isn't denied his dex bonus anymore. Therefore, Expert Tactician doesn't kick in.

Since there's no time that you can legally take the Expert Tactician attack, you can't benefit from using bluff in combination with expert tactician.

It's still a very good feat. As is Quicker than the Eye. (Although 3.5's Improved Feint is better than Quicker than the Eye for combat feinting--it grants +4 to the bluff check in addition to the ability to bluff as an MEA). They just don't work together.

If you are using the class books, there are two feats out of Song & Silence to consider. Expert Tactician & Quicker than the Eye.

Expert Tactician
Prereq: Dex 13+, bab +2, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: You can make one extra melee attack (or do anything that can be done as a melee touch attack, including attempts to disarm, trip, or make a grab to start a grapple) against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dex bonus against your melee attacks for any reason. You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action. If several foes are denied Dex bonus against your attacks, you can use thisfeat against only one of them.

Quicker than the Eye
Prereq: Dex 19+
Benefit: While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move-equivalent actoin, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial (stadard or move-equivalent) action, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action (standard or move-equivalent). If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dex bonus to AC.

Round begins:
Standard action - Feign, you win the check, the target now loses his Dex bonus vs. you allowing you to make an immediate attack via Expert Tactician.
Move-equivalent action - Quicker than the eye, you win the check, attack target who is again denied his Dex bonus vs. you.

Note: Expert Tactician only gives you ONE extra attack per round, which is why the Quicker than the Eye move does not grant you two attacks.

And there you go, two sneak attacks in one round. Mind you, this is assuming you win the opposed checks, which for the feigning was made much more difficult under 3.5 (was definiately needed).

 

[Tidus4444]

that's pretty good, unfortunately my Rogue uses a bow (I've already got PBS and Rapid). But that's a nice build, I might wanna try it sometime.

 

[drnuncheon]

]lvl 20 Rogue feints, waits till next round, and gets 10d6 sneak attack on 4 attacks (assuming bow w/ rapid shot).

You would only get the 10d6 extra on the first attack (unless there was some other reason you'd get sneak attack damage, but then you wouldn't need to feint...)

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

After your regular action, you're finished with "your next melee attack" so your opponent isn't denied his dex bonus anymore. Therefore, Expert Tactician doesn't kick in.

I disagree, there. While you're making your next melee attack, your opponent is denied his Dex bonus, which triggers Expert Tactician, giving you an extra attack.

You don't get to use that extra attack until your normal action has finished... but you are still an attack in credit.

(Although 3.5's Improved Feint is better than Quicker than the Eye for combat feinting--it grants +4 to the bluff check in addition to the ability to bluff as an MEA).

Lessee...

Improved Feint: MEA, opposed Bluff +4 vs opponent's Sense Motive plus BAB.

QTTE: MEA, opposed Bluff vs opponent's Spot check.

Spot and Sense Motive are both cross-class skills for the average fighter. So against, say, a Ftr-12, you can go with Improved Feint, for a +4 bonus against a cross-class skill plus 12 BAB... or with QTTE for no bonus against a cross-class skill with no bonus.

QTTE definitely still has a place in combat applications. Just don't try it against a ranger

-Hyp.

 

[Rary the Traitor]

It's still a very good feat. As is Quicker than the Eye. (Although 3.5's Improved Feint is better than Quicker than the Eye for combat feinting--it grants +4 to the bluff check in addition to the ability to bluff as an MEA). They just don't work together.

Why would IF grant a +4 bonus to the bluff check?

 

[Olive]

so one attack gets the bonus

I always get this wrong, sor emind me: is one attack one roll? Or does one full attack count as one attack?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I always get this wrong, sor emind me: is one attack one roll? Or does one full attack count as one attack?

Only the first attack in your full attack action benefits from the feint.

-Hyp.

 

[taliesin52]

At what point is the SA damage worth sacrificing the attack? 1d6

A rogue's BAB is generally low (compared to a warrior of some type). Unless you have a significant list of bonuses to attack, I'd suggest going with the one attack with SA damage, and negating the enemy's dex bonus (which of course improves attack) than two attacks, one with a very low chance of actually hitting at all.

Now once you get to your third attack in a round you may want to look at this again. However, by then you should be able to create SA opportunities in other ways along with feinting. Consider the rusty bag of tricks as a big boon. Summons an animal with some moderate fighting ability which you could use for flanking to provide you with SA damage on all attacks.

 

[Emiricol]

A possibly good combo is a rogue with a level of fighter. Equip him with a greatsword. Use feint to get your SA damage with the greatsword. If you hit and do 10+ HP of damage, then your Knockdown Feat kicks in. Getting an opponent prone is worth reducing from a possible higher damage to a guaranteed SA damage.

Tumble is nice with this one too, but only if you go with low AC and high Dex.

 

[Tidus4444]

Yes, Rogues do get pretty bad BAB, but... My character can hit things REALLY well. A usual attack bonus of +13 (our Bard loves to use inspire courage). Rapid shotting at +11/+11 I usually hit with most attacks. +11 is the Fighter's Attack Bonus, so I attack as well as him.