Forced to end movement in illegal space.

[Tharkon]

I have a very specific example for this but was wondering for the general rule as well.

The game I am currently playing is Pathfinder, but think this applies to all versions of D&D as well.

Consider the following example:
a 5-ft-square pit trap drops a creature into a deep shaft.
The bottom of the pit is likewise a single 5-ft square.
Normally the fallen creature would end up in that square but what happens if the square is already occupied, either by a creature waiting for the falling creature or by another creature that fell down earlier.

The rules say the new creature should move back to the last legal space, but I can't imagine the falling creature suddenly flying back up just because the space was occupied.

The rules say that when they can't go back to the last legal space they should find a legal space nearby, but in this case there are none, so what happens?

Don't assume the creature falling would drop prone, cause the pit might not be incredibly deep and allow an acrobatics check to land feet first.

Even if they do land prone, and assuming that prone creature can share spaces, cause I think the rules actually say only helpless creature can, what would happen if the creature tries to stand up?

One difference between Pathfinder and D&D is that n Pathfinder grappling creatures do not share each others space, however I am trying to find a solution for both games since I play them both. Preferably the same ruling for both games.

 

[billd91]

Keep in mind that the rules about space, legal spaces, sharing spaces and so on are all abstractions to manage battlefield combat. They aren't the laws of physics. Don't let them override your reasonable visualizations of the situations that arise that aren't tidy about conforming to the rules.

Multiple people can fit in a 5 ft by 5 ft area quite easily, particularly if they're willing to coexist and aren't fighting anybody. Bodies don't take up 5 ft by 5 ft spaces - that's just an abstract value to indicate how much swinging/fighting space a character needs to fight with full effectiveness. And if the two creatures in the 5 x 5 space are inimical and want to fight it out, go ahead and impose the squeezing rules on both of them to simulate how they're both hampered by not having a full fighting space available to them.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I have a very specific example for this but was wondering for the general rule as well.

The game I am currently playing is Pathfinder, but think this applies to all versions of D&D as well.

Consider the following example:
a 5-ft-square pit trap drops a creature into a deep shaft.
The bottom of the pit is likewise a single 5-ft square.
Normally the fallen creature would end up in that square but what happens if the square is already occupied, either by a creature waiting for the falling creature or by another creature that fell down earlier.

I would play it simple. One creature simply falls on the other, occupying the space immediately above it. A creature "fills" a 5 by 5 space.

 

[Morrus]

That's one of those reasons we have a DM to make a judgement call, because the rules can't cover *everything*.

Assuming this takes place in the midst of a combat encounterI would say that both are in the same square and squeezing (most editions of D&D/PF have squeezing rules).

This only applies in combat of course. Out of combat it simply doesn't matter - they're just both "at the bottom of a pit"; battlemaps and 5' squares don't matter.

 

[DogBackward]

The rules already cover being in a space that is smaller than the normal space for a creature of your size, so it's really easy to rule on this one. If two creatures are forced to share a space because there's nowhere else to go, then they're squeezing, just like someone going through an area that is too small for them (a medium-size creature entering a 2-3 foot wide tunnel, for example). I don't have my books on me, but if I remember correctly, that's a -2 to attacks and AC. Oh, and move at half speed, which doesn't really apply here since there's nowhere to move.

But yeah, the squeezing rules handle this pretty well, as long as you assume creatures are forced to share a space. You can't just decide to share a space with someone unless there's something physically keeping you there.

 

[Ramaster]

(...)Assuming this takes place in the midst of a combat encounterI would say that both are in the same square and squeezing(...)

This.

If one more creature enters the space, I would say that the bottom one is pinned and the top two are squeezing and on difficult ground, etc...

 

[DragonLancer]

You just have to use common sense. If one person falls down a pit and then a second falls or is pushed down, they end up in an uncomfortable heap.

 

[nijineko]

i recall reading a book where some children created a roleplaying game, and it turned into a real world at some point. sometimes the people in the world wondered why the "gods" had limited things the way they had, because the rules sure didn't make sense. ^^

 

[Tharkon]

Squeezing sounds right.

Now would you consider the first creature to be threatening the space above it? And would thus the second creature when it falls down and leaves the
space above the first creature, provoke an attack of opportunity?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Now would you consider the first creature to be threatening the space above it? And would thus the second creature when it falls down and leaves the space above the first creature, provoke an attack of opportunity?

Only if the creature on the bottom had been aware of the falling one before the fall, IMO.

AR