Forcing rules to accomodate character concepts

[I'm A Banana]

Its one thing to want to play a character like someone in literature or movies, its another to want to be that character. their is a big distinction.

This gets at the heart of it. It's one thing to play a D&D character inspired by a character from fiction, or games, or legends. It's quite another to play a character who is that, down to the minutae.

If a player actually want to role play as cloud, Everyone should be consenting to play a ff p&p game, otherwise it just gets really strange.

Even FFZ won't full emulate an exact replica of Cloud. A P&P game is a different beast than a videogame...heck, even videogames change (think of FFT Cloud vs. FF7 Cloud). You may get close, but you'll never get the same.

I see a dm full within his rights to say that that cant play as "the" cloud, but to say they cant play a character like him is kind of harsh and says a lot about the dm.

I kind of agree with this, and it goes with the "say mostly yes" philosophy that 3e DMing has been seemingly built with. If you disallow "gritty mercenary with super-human powers" in your D&D game, I think your setting is probably too narrow for my tastes, at least.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I think that games that say "Yes!" to players being awesome from day one are infinitely preferrable to those that say "maybe someday, if the dice fall the right way, and as long as you want to be awesome in a particular way that the rules don't dislike."

The idea that you have to start out as Frodo and work your way up to Aragorn annoys me to no end. It does a disservice to BOTH characters and makes for a much less enjoyable game. The idea that you have to start out as Frodo and work your way up to Gilgamesh, which is more accurate for D&D, is just bizarre.

 

[Ipissimus]

I've never had a problem with this, mainly because I've never said an outright no to anyone's character concept. The rules are supposed to be there to facilitate the player's enjoyment (this includes the referee, DM, GM, whatever the game calls it). The moment someone stops having fun is the moment the rules fail.

I've played and DMed with all types of oddball characters from all types of genres all mixed in together and from my experience, it doesn't matter how much bling the players have or how much they min/max or if their characters are carbon copies of Drizzt or Wolverine clones. The DM always has the upper hand because he can always pull out someone badder than the PCs.

Sure, you might have to get creative with a character concept that doesn't exactly mesh with the setting but that part can be fun too. Fun should be greater than rules.

I don't believe that allowing the system to dictate your game experience is really somehow more 'pure' or 'correct', particularly if it makes you or your friends unhappy. More personally, I find such elitist attitudes annoying, but then I have no problems balancing off players who find enjoyment in working with the rules system either. Contrary to popular belief, the two different play styles can be balanced in the same party, the referee/DM just has to be aware of all of his player's needs and not let them win too easily.

 

[Set]

Depends on the game. If I'm playing Buffy, I darn well better be able to make Buffy (or Willow, Faith, Angel, Cordelia, Xander or Giles).

If I'm using a system touted to be able to handle lots of options, like GURPS or Mutants & Masterminds, I should be able to make all sorts of characters from books, comics, tv shows, anime, etc. and, as many threads on the respective forums indicate, this is indeed the case. (But if the *game being run* doesn't have room for that sort of character, that's a different issue entirely. It doesn't matter how much the player is obsessed with Wolverine or Drizzt, if the game is set in the French revolution, or a space colony being overrun by Alien xenomorphs, you can't play either.)

If I'm playing Vampire or D&D, I *don't* need the rules to allow me to play a Highlander-style 'immortal' or Wolverine or a yautja Predator or a Jedi knight or Warhammer 40k space marine, 'cause that's not what those games were made to do.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The question is this - is it actually reasonable to expect RPG (or D&D, specifically) rules to closely accomodate many of the character types one commonly finds in fiction?

In my opinion, yes.

 

[Wombat]

I think this is why I try to match game rules to worlds rather than worlds to game rules...

I do my best to make sure that the set of rules I am going to work with in my game fits the world I am trying to create. In other words, setting first, rules second. That way if a player wants a particular kind of character that is appropriate to the setting, he should be able to create it. If the character would be inappropriate to the setting, it would be much more difficult.

 

[rgard]

This is the way I feel too. The war stories are just always so much better. Telling a fellow gamer about the time your 30th-level paladin put the smack down on an entire orc tribe just doesn't have the same impact as the tale about how your 3rd-level wizard scored a lucky crit to kill a dire wolf when he was out of spells with 2 hit points left. Just seems more heroic to risk death when you have fewer resources to fall back on to me.

Yep. I think it also gives the character more depth at higher levels.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[rgard]

Yeah... I'd be hard-pressed to even make a guess at the number of 1st-level characters I've rolled up. Probably murdered several trees in the process though. My own longest running campaign went from 1st level to 22nd. LOTS of fun. I did try starting characters off at 18th level when we did the Throne of Bloodstone and it worked out reasonably well. It is unfortunately true that most games never survive into the double-digit levels, much less epic levels. I've always wanted to play an epic character but never gotten the chance.

We made it to Epic (24th level or so) in one campaign that ran nearly 18 months. We played 1-2 times a week. That's it from 1st to Epic in 3.5 for me.

In 1E, we played characters from 1st to 33rd or so, but it took us from 1978 to about 1987. We played several times a week initially, but it tapered off to once a month or so towards the end.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Warren Okuma]

The question is this - is it actually reasonable to expect RPG (or D&D, specifically) rules to closely accomodate many of the character types one commonly finds in fiction?

DnD, no. Gurps, BESM, Champions yes.

I see a lot of people complain that they can't make a carbon copy of a character from their favorite book, movie, anime, whatever. And it drives me up the wall. (mostly because it's a complaint I sometimes get from players when I DM, and I hate saying "no" when they come to me with a concept I usually feel is both unoriginal an unrealistic - almost as much as I hate saying "yes" and then watching them pay more attention to the way their wrist-crossbows (why are there always wrist-crossbows?) should work then to the game itself)

Wrist-crossbows? BESM or Champions.

Fictional characters have the advantage of not having to follow rules of any kind - or even of making sense, for that matter. The writer doesn't care what "level" the hero of a novel would have to be to actually have all the abilities he's gifted with - and the character is usually fully realized already, so we never see how long it'd have taken to grow into them.

Ah, cinematic Gurps, or stock BESM or stock Champions.

In addition, frequently enough fantasy characters will do things - quite risky, or damn near impossible ones, ostensibly beyond their abilities - and succeed, because the plot demands it. Sometimes, they'll do it regularly enough that it seems routine, even though it shouldn't be.

It is doable if your'r playing Buffy and using Drama Points. Gurps with luck and super luck can do the same.

The problems appears when someone playing a game - which has clearly defined rules - looks at those characters, and wants to create one just like them.

Wrong. DnD has stilted wargame type rules. Some systems are a bit more flexible.

They ignore the fact that they're not the epic hero yet (and that if the dice fall the wrong way, they might never be one),

Uh, you can always run an epic or high level campaign. Looks like your players will have more fun in a high level campaign.

or that - even if they're exceptional compared to every other person populating the world - there are probably at least 3 or 4 other characters just as "special", and their players are sitting at the table with them.

Ah.

Nope, they want to make the Aragorn or Conan or Bobba Fett, and if the system doesn't accomodate that perfectly, they blame the game, instead of their own unrealistic expectations.

They are right to blame the game. Why don't you run a game where Aragorn, Conan, and Bobba Fett runs around? Sounds like fun.

To me, it usually simply sounds like someone saying they want everything, and pouting when they don't get it...

Let them have everything. Let them face Darth Vader, Sauron and the like.

Refusing to accept the fact that an RPG character simply cannot function exactly the same way as a fictional character from a non-interactive genre,

Why not? I actually ran something like that. League of Extraordinary heroes set in the 1990's using Champions. I had Ash (Army of Darkness), Berthold (Adventures of Baron Munchousen), Witchblade, Indiana Jones's great grandson, a Wolfwere, and McGuivers younger smarter brother, and of course John Steed was the contact, working for the New M... (Kaiser Soise). And I threw in the Sluggy Freelance crew. That campaign rocked.

where the only rules are the limits of the writer's imagination, and the characters are often wildly exceptional - and extremely lucky.

They can buy luck in Champions, BESM and Gurps. What's the problem?

Now, this doesn't mean I don't expect RPGs to be able to accomodate a good variety of character concepts - playing one where your only choices are warrior, cleric, mage and thief really isn't my thing.

Ah, now you are thinking.

I'm also not saying everyone should simply learn to be satisfied with less -

And nether should you.

but I do think more people should accept the fact that they can't declare their character to be a hero of legendary stature, that can do anything, and expect everything to fall into place.

Why not? Just run a higher level dungeon or a superhero type game?

Just accept the fact that you're on a ride, that luck is going to be a factor, and that you're sharing the spotlight with several other people - which means that you can't do everything by yourself... Anyway, I guess I'm done ranting...

Why settle for less? You don't have to settle for less.

 

[Warren Okuma]

I think this is why I try to match game rules to worlds rather than worlds to game rules...

I do my best to make sure that the set of rules I am going to work with in my game fits the world I am trying to create. In other words, setting first, rules second. That way if a player wants a particular kind of character that is appropriate to the setting, he should be able to create it. If the character would be inappropriate to the setting, it would be much more difficult.

Absolutely.

His example is Aragorn, Conan, and Boba Fetts... fine.

Here's your opening scene.
Aragorn, your boat was engulfed by sandstorm cast by Sauron as he climbed out of hell. You don't know how, but he's back. When the sandstorm died down you found out that he exiled you to Tattoine. You are looking for a way back. You need companions. You go to a inn.

Conan, Thoth-Amun hurled you into another dimension. They call this dimension Tattoine. Who knows what evil he is doing back home? Hey, a tavern. You're there.

Boba Fett, you have just crawled out of the Sarnoc. You need to shoot that scumbag who hired you. He's in that bar. You enter the bar.

Three squads of Imperial Storm Troopers and three spy drones comes in. "Boba Fett, for your failure, the Emperor has ordered your immediate execution."
Conan, A Storm Trooper flips your table for cover. Your mug of beer and food hits the floor. The Storm Trooper laughs and says "What? Go lick it up Bantha Drek." And tries to back hand you. (You can block it, you are Conan after all)
Aragorn, Another Storm Trooper points at you (point at that player) and say "What are you looking at?"
They will use the spy drones to ID the perps and when the squad is half down, they will call for AT-ATs when half down which will show up just as the PC's are leaving.

Some storm troopers with one squad assault blaster waiting at Boba Fett's bay (no starship), they laugh and said they scrapped it for parts. So Boba Gotta steal a starship and leave. Preferably with the others. Let Boba know that the Elf can sense Darth and use his herbs to kind of mask where you are, and give hints that Ol' Darth can kick your ass unless you have help.

In a cinematic game everyone speaks English... Storm trooper armor is basically crap. It doesn't stop much, it's mainly a space suit that you can barely see out of in a cinematic game. Was it ever effective in the movies? Not so much, and it sucks just as bad.

So, why run something you know your players think, suck when you can run something that they might think is awesome?