D&D General Forgive my blasphemy: downplaying the Grayhawk gods

[Jolly Ruby]

This post is a simple question: what's the effect of downplaying gods in Greyhawk, or even replacing the whole pantheon with something else? I know that they are a late addition, so maybe it's not a big deal.

As a grey box person I always felt Greyhawk gods were a bit too "gonzo" for my taste, and not in a good way like Barrier Peaks. The new DMG gave that grayhawk itch again and I'm thinking of trying to create my "Rubyhawk" based on a mix between the 1980 folio, things I stole from other sources and whatever 2024 DMG give us.

And one more question: if you think I should keep the Greyhawk original pantheon, or at least part of it, why do you think so and how to make the most of it?

PS.: I thought it was a good idea to make this post a "question", and now that I know what it means I regret it. This post should've been a discussion. If a mod see this and can fix my mistake I would be very grateful.

 

[Yaarel]

This post is a simple question: what's the effect of downplaying gods in Greyhawk, or even replacing the whole pantheon with something else? I know that they are a late addition, so maybe it's not a big deal.

As a grey box person I always felt Greyhawk gods were a bit too "gonzo" for my taste, and not in a good way like Barrier Peaks. The new DMG gave that grayhawk itch again and I'm thinking of trying to create my "Rubyhawk" based on a mix between the 1980 folio, things I stole from other sources and whatever 2024 DMG give us.

And one more question: if you think I should keep the Greyhawk original pantheon, or at least part of it, why do you think so and how to make the most of it?

PS.: I thought it was a good idea to make this post a "question", and now that I know what it means I regret it. This post should've been a discussion. If a mod see this and can fix my mistake I would be very grateful.

It is easy to run an Eberron approach to religion in Greyhawk. Each culture has its own sacred traditions, and all of the worldviews have a grain of truth to them.

The religion is more about how a culture interprets the world. Different points of view are fine.

If players explore the Astral Plane, the domains in the Astral Sea can look like whatever a particular culture thinks it looks like.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding a Norse sacred tradition, treat it like the Feywild. 4e and 5e moreorless relocated the Elves from Arborea to the Feywild. The Norse content makes more sense to do the same. The Norse traditions are animistic nature beings. The jǫtnar are literally features of the landscape and waterscape, the æsir are literally the features of the skyscape. They overlap the Material Plane. It might work if the Alfar relate to Positive Energy and the Dvergar to Negative Void, with regard to successful fates versus unsuccessful fates. Both the Feywild and the Shadowfell overlap the Material world. They are spirits moving thru the Material Plane. The jǫtnar are more Elemental in mood, projecting out from whatever nature feature they are to move thru the Ethereal Plane while observing the Material Plane. Norse Hel is roughly the same thing as the Shadowfell, except there are places that are lifespringing paradises and perhaps more Fey. Hel is the underground of the Shadowfell, while Ásaheim is the sky of the Feywild. One does well enough to treat Óðinn and Þórr as Archfey. But this Feywild isnt "somewhere else". They wander the Material Plane like ghosts do.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This post is a simple question: what's the effect of downplaying gods in Greyhawk, or even replacing the whole pantheon with something else? I know that they are a late addition, so maybe it's not a big deal.

As a grey box person I always felt Greyhawk gods were a bit too "gonzo" for my taste, and not in a good way like Barrier Peaks. The new DMG gave that grayhawk itch again and I'm thinking of trying to create my "Rubyhawk" based on a mix between the 1980 folio, things I stole from other sources and whatever 2024 DMG give us.

And one more question: if you think I should keep the Greyhawk original pantheon, or at least part of it, why do you think so and how to make the most of it?

PS.: I thought it was a good idea to make this post a "question", and now that I know what it means I regret it. This post should've been a discussion. If a mod see this and can fix my mistake I would be very grateful.

I am kidding! Okay, serious answer time. Well, serious for all "Snarf is being serious" values of serious.

Background, because this is something I really dove into the history on. Two parts- one is specific to Greyhawk, and one is more general history.

D&D General - What if God was One of Us? Divinity in Early D&D & Greyhawk

Some days, you feel like the Count in Sesame Street. Five! Five Greyhawk-adjacent threads! Muahahahahahahahaha! I was asked very nicely in another thread to post about the mythos of Greyhawk. Which is a fascinating topic that deserves a lot of interest! But in my opinion, the most...

www.enworld.org

D&D General - Divine Power: Theros, Deities and Demigods, and the Power of Worship

I truly enjoyed the recent, excellent review of the new Mythic Odysseys of Theros that can be found here. One particular quote stood out to me: In Forgotten Realms, 5th Edition D&D's default setting, gods exist – they power clerics and paladins – but they've taken a step back. They aren't...

www.enworld.org

I think that those are helpful to this discussion, but I also know that nobody actually bothers to read the links, so I'll try to make this simple.

Let me make the following observations-

1. There is no "wrong" way to do Greyhawk. Seriously. Greyhawk is now your world. Do whatever feels best! As I've come to realize, the magic of Greyhawk is that you can make it your own. Do it. DO IT NOW.

2. Early Greyhawk did not have set deities. If you look back to the pieces I wrote, you'll notice the timing. Early D&D wasn't all about the deities, and when it finally was, they, um, appropriated the deities from other mythos (Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes (Kuntz & Ward 1976), Deities & Demigods (Ward 1980)). In other words, as you correctly note ... when the original Folio was released, there was no "Greyhawk pantheon." It wasn't until the 1983 Campaign Setting that we received the Greyhawk pantheon (as previously detailed in Dragon magazine articles). So there was a time when people were playing in Greyhawk with a whole mismatch of different deities.

3. Early D&D, and the Greyhawk pantheon, actually has an interesting approach to divinity. One of the things that i love about the Greyhawk approach to deities is that "godhood" is actually not something set in stone, but more of a continuum that can be achieved. Players can actually aspire to be quasi-deities (and, eventually, demi-gods, but they should have been removed from play before that!). Because of that, the deities of Greyhawk have a different feel to them, and I kinda like them. I don't find them gonzo, I find them relatable in that way,* but YMMV.

4. Some Greyhawk deities may be required. Okay, even if you move away from all that cruft (no judgment!) you may want to keep a few because they are kinda sorta important. Iuz tops that list. I would add Pholtus as well, mostly because you need a jerky good god for various theocrats. Zagyg. And, of course, Thari.... SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

All that said, the deities in Greyhawk are as present, or as absent, as you want them to be.


*Okay, okay. St. Cuthbert. Maybe he just goes by Cuthbert.

 

[Hussar]

Gotta admit that I've always had a huge soft spot for Kord.

AIR, there was a Dragon article that let you play a child of Kord - which was actually kinda cool. Very Hercules, although predating the TV show by a lot of years.

 

[Parmandur]

For my money, I'd say taking the pantheon and religion material from Critical Role (particularly the Wildemount Chapters on it) would make sense. Most of those gods are Greyhawk, anyways. Make Zygag and Iuz "lesser idols" on that approach.

 

[Voadam]

Iuz is a cambion already isnt he?

Yes, the same way St. Cuthbert is a human.

I meant make him just a cambion, not a cambion demigod.

 

[Dausuul]

I quite like the Greyhawk deities. As @AdmundfortGeographer observed, they look like a mess if you dump them all in the same bucket, but that's because you're doing the equivalent of dumping the Norse, Egyptian, Greek, and Celtic gods in the same bucket. There isn't a "Greyhawk pantheon," there are many Greyhawk pantheons, each with its own distinctive style, and each tied to a particular place and/or time -- very like the real world.

And, also like the real world, the categories are not rigid and the boundaries blur. The Egyptian goddess Isis had a flourishing cult in ancient Rome. Pagan rituals were co-opted by the Christian church. In the same way, you see Pelor being worshipped by many people who aren't generally devotees of the Flan deities, or some orcs favoring Hextor over Gruumsh, and "loner gods" like Boccob attached to no pantheon.

It makes the world feel big and strange and mysterious. Contrast the Forgotten Realms, where you have the same major deities basically everywhere, and they're always sticking a hand into mortal affairs. That feels very stifling to me.

 

[Riley]

Our Greyhawk campaign predated the publishing of the Greyhawk gods. We generally associated the Norse pantheon with Suel, Greek pantheon with Oeridians, and IIRC animism and whatnot for the Flan. Plus various cults of this, that, or the other as needed. It was great! But there was little official lore to contradict our campaign’s choices.

If I were running Greyhawk again today, I’d toss out most of the Greyhawk gods, keep a few like Iuz, Istus, Boccob, Cuthbert, Lolth, and Zagyg. Tharizdun. Then I’d pick and choose others to add that either 1) are desired by a player, or 2) inspire me with adventure idea seeds. Such as: Raven Queen (aka Wee Jas), 4e Bane, 3.5e-ish Vecna, and probably a decent chunk of the Norse pantheon. Whoever would make for good adventures.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I quite like the Greyhawk deities. As @AdmundfortGeographer observed, they look like a mess if you dump them all in the same bucket, but that's because you're doing the equivalent of dumping the Norse, Egyptian, Greek, and Celtic gods in the same bucket. There isn't a "Greyhawk pantheon," there are many Greyhawk pantheons, each with its own distinctive style, and each tied to a particular place and/or time -- very like the real world.

And, also like the real world, the categories are not rigid and the boundaries blur. The Egyptian goddess Isis had a flourishing cult in ancient Rome. Pagan rituals were co-opted by the Christian church. In the same way, you see Pelor being worshipped by many people who aren't generally devotees of the Flan deities, or some orcs favoring Hextor over Gruumsh, and "loner gods" like Boccob attached to no pantheon.

It makes the world feel big and strange and mysterious. Contrast the Forgotten Realms, where you have the same major deities basically everywhere, and they're always sticking a hand into mortal affairs. That feels very stifling to me.

Actually, the gods of the Forgotten Relms come from multiple in-setting pantheons as well - the Coramshite pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, the Netherese pantheon, and the Talfiric pantheon. It's just that the Reams are further along in the merging process than Greyhawk, and most overlapping deities have either syncretized with each other or one rival has defeated the other (with the defeated either becoming a servant or being outright killed). And of course there are a lot of interloper deities like Tyr and Silvanus.

And of course, Mulhorand and Unther would like to speak with you about all the same gods being worshipped everywhere...

 

[Yaarel]

Not every religion is polytheism, nor even theism generally.