Forgotten Realms...

[seankreynolds]

I think another part of the "Realms being full of magic" comes from some of the places where they have magical plumbing and magical lights and common people make use of minor magical items for daily conveiniences. This is not the common way in the Realms, but there are a few places like that (Halruua for example).

Which is something we toned down or eradicated in the FRCS, because we felt there was too much "whimsy" in FR because of poor management of the previous products in the line.

:hew::

 

[Renshai]

The prejudices don't come so much from the crappy novels but from the ridiculous power level of the NPCs and organizations in the setting itself.

Ridiculous by what standard? Your standard? I will never understand why people believe that their opinion or point of view is the only valid one to have. We are talking about fantasy here, a term in and of itself that deals with the limitless bounds of imagination.

When every NPC in a position of power is a 20th level archmage or high priest with super-duper magic items, "chosen of the gods" templates, and a gazillion magic items at their disposal, it's obvious that in order for your players to make any difference in the setting, they must compete with these uber-munchkin NPCs.

You are speaking out of ignorance in this case, I’m afraid.

Calimshan is ruled by the Syl’Pasha (hardly an archmage).
Cormyr is ruled by the Steel Regent, a powerful fighter, hardly a Chosen Archmage.
Waterdeep is ruled by a paladin.
Sembia is ruled by a Rogue.
Tethyr is ruled by two mid-level fighters.
Shadowdale is ruled by a mid-level fighter.
Amn is ruled by a council of rogues.
Aglarond and the Silver Marches are ruled by archmages (Oh! Two so far!)
Mulhorandi is ruled by a 14th level Paladin.

I could go on and on. The Realms has its share of powerful archmages. But like I said before, why do you feel that there must be some limit places on the number of powerful NPCs in a world, especially in a world that is built on the ruins of ancient empires that were mastering the heights of magic three thousand years ago.

Why do you think that there must be some competition between the player characters and non-player characters? Is this something that you encourage in your games? It is ridiculous to think that a group of mature (or immature for that matter) would sit around a table whining about the power levels of NPCs.

If you apply the same rationale to Greyhawk (which you claim holds some ill-defined superiority to Forgotten Realms) you have the same problem.

Surely your player characters must be jealous of the powers that these NPCS wield? Especially in the lower levels. Why go stop the dragon from ravaging Greyhawk City when Mordenkainen or some other powerful NPC should just show up and take care of it. The same brush can be used to paint the same problem for any setting where there are powerful NPCs.

The NPC rulers are all designed to be invincible to "maintain the setting and characters as Ed Greenwood envisioned them," IMO. So players have no chance to change anything as written. The gods themselves will lay down the smack if their uber-chosen NPCs are messed with. So you can't win. If you do, you aren't "running the Realms as intended."

I must have missed the part in the FRCS what says players can never hope to reach the lofty vaults of the NPCs. So what do you mean, “change things as they are written”? Does this pertain to destroying or foiling the plans of these so-called uber-npcs? There is no “intended” way to run the Realms. You run them as you see fit. If something that you do causes the death of Fzoul or even Elminster then your campaign has been changed. The world won’t end if this happens.

Leaving your mark on the setting that you play does not have to involve slaying the older NPCs. It sounds like that is the kind of game you run, since you keep harping on that subject.

In FR, magic and monsters are everywhere and so there is nothing special about finding a +1 sword or meeting a troll. It's poorly thought out and extremely juvenile. It feels more like some 40 year old fan boy's wet dream than a real, living, breathing world... Which is why it appeals to so many gamers, I guess.

So there aren’t monsters everywhere in Greyhawk? Or Mystara? Or any other Dungeons and Dragons setting? There aren’t many +1 longswords? I’m afraid that if you are running the game “as intended” you are going to find a +1 longsword by sixth level or so… in fact… you will find them much sooner. Take the Core Modules for instance. These are set in Greyhawk by default. In the first adventure you find a +1 longsword and fight a troll. So by your definition above, Greyhawk must be poorly thought out and juvenile.

It doesn’t surprise me that you couldn’t perceive the Forgotten Realms as a living-breathing world. Your views are narrow and stereotypical of someone who hasn’t done much more than peruse the material and history present in the Realms, but rather subscribes to popular theory. The foundations of your argument lack at every turn.

More intelligent, researched and detailed settings like Harn, Greyhawk, Glorantha, etc., aren't as popular because they appeal to older, sophisticated gamers, not young teenage kids who just want to smack things with their +10 vorpal blades and don't give a damn about RPing, historical accuracy or anything else because they just don't know any better... yet. Hopefully, some day they will. And when they do, they will abandon settings like FR for one of the ones I mentioned before or a homebrew, or another game altogether. +10 vorpal blades wielded by 150th level fighter/cleric/wizard/assassins are only fun for so long, after all.

You certainly like to tout yourself as a superior person don’t you? What makes Greyhawk more intelligent than the Realms? The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. You don’t offer one ounce of founded fact that holds up.

While I don’t agree with the style of play that you mention above, I certainly don’t look down upon those that enjoy it. That style of player lends itself to a younger audience or once that simply enjoys that style of play as a pastime. Who are you to tell them it is right or wrong? There is no moral high ground to take here. You enjoy one style while they enjoy the other. Don’t try and make yourself seem more intelligent or morally superior, because to put it simply, you aren’t. Hate to burst your bubble.


It is perfectly within your rights to not like the Realms. That is your view. That view doesn’t make you better than anyone else, though it is evident from your posts that you think it does. I find that pretty pathetic, personally.

From reading the DMG, one would have only the vaguest of notions of how a medieval world works.

This is where your argument breaks down completely. Dungeons and Dragons is NOT set in a medieval world. It couldn’t be more different. The presence of Magic, Magic Items, Arcane Spells, Monsters, and Gods that grant power to their followers change the way that a medieval society and culture would exist. Perhaps your narrow vision of how a fantasy world should be portrayed needs a serious re-evaluation.

Those of us who complain about high fantasy/low intelligence munchkinism in FR and similar settings sound so elitist because we *are* the elite. We demand and expect more detail and realism from our games, not the same old tired mish-mash of hackneyed Tolkienesque rip-offs served up as tasteless gruel for the masses.

What a dismal display.

On a final note. No one setting holds the prestigious right of promoting roleplay more than another. Roleplaying rests solely in the hands of the players and Dungeon Masters. I’ve run and witnessed games in the Forgotten Realms that have inspired tears of joy and sorrow. The same can be said for Glorantha and Greyhawk. The story promotes roleplaying; the setting provides the blank page where it is written.

Ren

 

[Regdar]

Bah, get the blankets

Bah, why can't a thread for the Forgotten Realms not go the route of the flame war, easy. The same reason the pro Greyhawk ones go the same, or everytime a world is mentioned Nightfall has to jump in with Scarred Lands or someone brings up Kalamar as the next comming of Christ. People fight for what they like and bash what they don't.

Low Magic does not equal better game!
High magic does not equal better game!

Your game companions enjoying themselves equals better game, whether it's playing in the Realms (which Regdar does not care for) or Greyhawk, or Gloranthia, or Bilbolandofgoodtimesandbeer or whatever suits your taste.

It breaks down to, not one person here will change the opinion of another, to make them abandon what they like to go to another. What Regdar says or Nightfall says or even SeanKReynolds says has no impact on your game when it comes down to it.

Yes FR gets support, why because it's been pushed since the whole TSR fisaco years ago with supporting a new world, the divorce and whatever. There is no changing time back to the way it once was, no time machine or ale cup big enough to undo what is now. There is nothing to prevent you or Regdar from taking something and making it something else, you are only limited by your imagination.. and the vast quantities of ale consumed.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

What my problem is with the "munchkin NPC's" in the FR is the fact that the PC's will never be able to truly be the major players in the world. When the PC's in my Greyhawk Campaign hit 20th level there will be only a handful of people more powerful than them, while in the FR you have tons. Hell the setting had to do it's own Epic rules to create the NPC's. Lorrick the 20th level wizard is a legendary Archmage in Oerth, but just another PC on Toril.

 

[Numion]

What my problem is with the "munchkin NPC's" in the FR is the fact that the PC's will never be able to truly be the major players in the world. When the PC's in my Greyhawk Campaign hit 20th level there will be only a handful of people more powerful than them, while in the FR you have tons. Hell the setting had to do it's own Epic rules to create the NPC's. Lorrick the 20th level wizard is a legendary Archmage in Oerth, but just another PC on Toril.

And what do you do when the PCs hit 20th level on Oerth? Retire them? Since they already are the kings of the world, there's not much left to do.

On the other hand, on Toril the game isn't limited to 20th. Come epic levels, and FR supports them. It just takes longer to get to the top tier on Toril. 20th level is just an arbitrary limit, which will be removed by the Epic-level Handbook.

I think it's just nice that even one setting inherently supports the Epic-level Book. But you're right, if limited to 20 levels, the NPCs will be more powerful.

The good ol' "It's not a bug, it's a feature" - defence. And I think it's accurate here

 

[Ron]

And what do you do when the PCs hit 20th level on Oerth? Retire them? Since they already are the kings of the world, there's not much left to do.

If they plan to retire, that will be fine. However, it is possible to keep a nice game in which they are equals to Rary, Mordeinkainen, and the Mage of the Valley. They would be ploting with or against those high-level characters and interacting in higher level with Iuz and Vecna. This could be a nice game. Why not? Would be the same happen in the Realms. Perhaps, but a friend of mine is betting that when the Epic Level book comes out, they will raise Elminster level above to the maximum covered in that book. It may be a joke, but it is how many people fell about those high level characters.

On the other hand, on Toril the game isn't limited to 20th. Come epic levels, and FR supports them. It just takes longer to get to the top tier on Toril. 20th level is just an arbitrary limit, which will be removed by the Epic-level Handbook.

I think it's just nice that even one setting inherently supports the Epic-level Book. But you're right, if limited to 20 levels, the NPCs will be more powerful.

Ok, but from what I heard of the Epic book, this will fail to bring my money to Wizards. I prefer HERO to play Superheroes.

The good ol' "It's not a bug, it's a feature" - defence. And I think it's accurate here

You're right. However, it will not fit in everybody style. That's much about the problem with this discussion.

Personally, I think that the LGC have done right in not detailing the NPCs. To know that Mordenkainen, Rary, and the Mage of Valley are level 20+ wizards is suficient to know that they are big movers. I don't need to know every single detail about their character sheet. Their personalities and long term objectives would be more useful. I open the FRCS and Elminster stats are placed in focus. It appears that the setting is more about the NPCs than the players' characters. I cannot agree with that.

 

[Drew_Bear]

Geez.........

For God's sake people. My post was merely to ascertain how different folks treat the Realms, if they play them. I did NOT intend for this to become a "My World is Better Than Yours" slug-fest.

I appreciate everyone's input, but I have to ask the moderators to close this thread. My intentions have been corrupted. Sorry to anyone who was bothered by this post.

 

[Pseudonym]

Nice board you have here.

Why is it that an evil demigod/demon marshalling his forces to take over the world (or at least a good chunk of it) until his demonic forces are banished using a powerful god's artifact weilded by a high level NPC would be considered ubermunchkin if done in the Realms, but somehow manages to escape that label when it happens in Greyhawk?

If a cabal of eight high level NPC wizards came together to manipulate various political factions in the Realms, that's further proof of how munchkin the Realms is. Call them the Circle of Eight and give those wizards names like Mordenkainen, Drawmij and Bigby and suddenly it's not so munchkin anymore.

 

[Victim]

Re: Geez.........

For God's sake people. My post was merely to ascertain how different folks treat the Realms, if they play them. I did NOT intend for this to become a "My World is Better Than Yours" slug-fest.

I appreciate everyone's input, but I have to ask the moderators to close this thread. My intentions have been corrupted. Sorry to anyone who was bothered by this post.

Don't worry about it, this always happens when someone mentions the Forgotten Realms.

Probably the biggest thing about running the FR is to make the world yours. Maybe Elminster gets killed by the Shades or something in your world, or your group's last FR characters have important positions in an area.

 

[Pseudonym]

To answer your initial question, Drew_Bear, I've kept the magic level in my Realms game straight out of the DMG recomended guidelines. I started the PCs at 3rd level with 2700 GP to spend on equipment, telling them that they could purchace anything they wanted, providing that they could aford it.

A few bought mithril chain shirts, masterwork items and things of that nature. One girl bought a Heward's Haversack and they collectively bought several Cure Light potions. None of this I considered unbalancing. I've kept their magic item aquisition level with the DMG suggestions, and it's worked out so far; at least I haven't gotten any complaints about the level of magic available to the PCs as of yet.