Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

[EricNoah]

I see it as having little to nothing to do with crunch vs. fluff. I see it as a question of potential buyers -- players & DMs vs. just DMs.

Players and DMs will buy the FRCS and Magic of Faerun. Only DMs will buy Lords of Darkness. I haven't seen Silver Marches, so I don't know who it's aimed at. Does it have stuff for players? Would having it reveal secrets to players? Those are the things that will determine whether it's a "must have" or a "DM says I shouldn't have, it will spoil the surprise" type of product.

 

[BryonD]

I see it as having little to nothing to do with crunch vs. fluff. I see it as a question of potential buyers -- players & DMs vs. just DMs.

Players and DMs will buy the FRCS and Magic of Faerun. Only DMs will buy Lords of Darkness. I haven't seen Silver Marches, so I don't know who it's aimed at. Does it have stuff for players? Would having it reveal secrets to players? Those are the things that will determine whether it's a "must have" or a "DM says I shouldn't have, it will spoil the surprise" type of product.

I DM almost exclusively. When I picked up Silver Marches in the store I thought of how little Lords of Darkness has added to my game and decided Silver Marches probably was not worth the money to me.

In my case the Crunch vs. Fluff was everything to do with it.

 

[Sinistar]

Hail Grumpy one. Do not bring up the Mojojojo incident again please. I still have the scars..

Eric, my response on the Silver Marches is sort of mixed. There were portions of it that I as a DM would not want my players to see, but there were other portions that were imperative that they read. So I am a bit torn. I don't think it gives away too much, especially if you preface anything the players read with "maybe, maybe not". I think the Silver Marches as a book is as good as the FRCS.

I am about half way through reading Silver Marches now. It is one of the better setting books I have ever read. I really like it. Most of it is probably "fluff", I have not reached the monster or PrC section yet, and that is what I am looking for from a setting.

I am sure the equations that are being used here are more complex than an either or situation. I think reducing it two to sections of "crunch" and "fluff" is probably unhelpfully simplified.

My only concern is this; what happens to D&D when there are no sponsored settings? The current theory is, that new settings sell their first two books so for the next big things, (CoC, WoT, probably everything else that will come out) they get two books. That is fine. Many settings really don't need more than that. But what happened to D&D the game when there were no settings for it. Before the re-invention of 3e there was only FR as a setting by the end and it was not enough to keep the game profitable.

We have come full circle. We only have FR left and it is not enough to be profitable. Fine and dandy, the free market working on its own. That may mean (but hopefully not) the end of FR. What then do you publish? You have the class books. You have the ELH, you have a new MM coming, but what else?

The model seems to be going to the Magic:the Gathering model that I really loathe. "Hmm, expansion has stopped selling. Ok pump out the new expansion with the same material just re-arranged. Oh and throw a different artist at it." D&D becomes the collectible setting game. Wayward Lunchboxes the new gamer inspired setting sells its first two books. One of which is almost all new rules on how to play with the lunchboxes. Never mind that it is a 3e D&D game. The rules really should not be different. But you have to have a new mechanic or it does not sell to those who like the "crunch". So after the quarter that sells Wayward Lunchboxes, you have to come out with the new setting.

It resets and starts over. You now go with the Stray Toasters game and invent yet another mechanic that has to be played in this particular setting that makes the first book a rule book and the second a setting book. Only maybe this setting really does not need that much space for the mechanic so you make one book that has only the rules and the setting in it. That takes care of a quarter.

and again... I am getting long winded. But the model depends on Joe Gamer wanting the next big thing to the exclusion of wanting the old thing.

 

[JeffB]

Eric,

Good points...

So then does D&D become a game for just the players? If they only produce products that DM's may or may not want or need, then where will that leave the game in the future?...

There are already less DM's to players...by ignoring the needs of the DM..WOTC sets up the game for failure..less DMs...less people to introduce the game to newbies..less people play...

SO the former players become DM's..then they realize they have no support either....same situation...

This has been the problem since the mid-80's...narrow minded focus on selling books for players.....then they wonder why people drop out of the game after a few years or move on to another game....

Not bad now..but very bad in the long run....and WOTC sets itself up for the same failure as TSR...as long as absolute bottom lines at the expense of all else, rule the game, it will always crash and burn every several years...

WOTC needs to relearn their thinking process..by focusing on being the BEST..the biggest title will come in time...

 

[provik]

Crunchy Rums

I bought my crunchy Rums book (it had some crunchy, but the soft filling was really useful).

I do believe, however, that a company that cancels Chainmail because it didn't take off fast enough (even though it won awards for great new game) and even though it had potential for a strong and loyal following (miniatures people can be dreadfully loyal)....

...anyway, yes, I believe they will cancel FR just because they're stupid enough to do it. Like an idiot with a torch. I believe he would set fire to the printing press because he doesn't know how to use it.

Bobbo

 

[Tallow]

Jeff,

I'm not sure I agree that the DM was ignored by TSR. They put out TONS of source material for almost every single corner, and then some, of the FR's. They had the Volo Guides, which were excellent. The problem wasn't lack of support. It was too much REDUNDANT support. The first round of Dalelands/Cormyr/Anaroch/Sword Coast/Savage Frontier/etc. was great, and probably sold great. It was when they rewrote all these and put them in boxed sets, which was unecessary, and sold them at boxed set prices that they didn't sell as well. As I said in my earlier post, I have 3 or 4 copies of each set of source material. Why do I need 3 books on Cormyr just because they updated for the next 10 years? THAT is why DM material doesn't sell well now, even though NOW is when the revision is warranted. NOW is when we need a new Cormyr and a new Dalelands, so we have area specific PrC's, feats, etc. But I probably won't buy them for quite some time, because I'm burnt out on too much stuff that was unnecessary. Unecessary stuff put together in a set so they could sell it for $60 bucks is why TSR failed. Not the fact they didn't support the DM. And now WotC is having to deal with a burnt out crowd who doesn't want to buy new books on the same material again.

Eric,

Good points...

So then does D&D become a game for just the players? If they only produce products that DM's may or may not want or need, then where will that leave the game in the future?...

There are already less DM's to players...by ignoring the needs of the DM..WOTC sets up the game for failure..less DMs...less people to introduce the game to newbies..less people play...

SO the former players become DM's..then they realize they have no support either....same situation...

This has been the problem since the mid-80's...narrow minded focus on selling books for players.....then they wonder why people drop out of the game after a few years or move on to another game....

Not bad now..but very bad in the long run....and WOTC sets itself up for the same failure as TSR...as long as absolute bottom lines at the expense of all else, rule the game, it will always crash and burn every several years...

WOTC needs to relearn their thinking process..by focusing on being the BEST..the biggest title will come in time...

 

[MadTinkerer]

The importance of Beans

Ya know what? I think the Bean Counters are right. After all, the Elves can make all the Forgotten Rum they want, but they can't drink it. Their only source of food is Beans.

See, the Bean counters are hired to count beans, and they also can only eat beans so people think the Bean Counters are selfish. What many don't remember(as evidenced by some, but not all on this thread) is that the Bean Counters are also looking out for the Elves. If the Bean supply runs low, the Elves will starve.

Now it seems to me the real problem is the Haze Brothers(if the parable is accurate). The Haze Brothers should realize ASAP that Beans are the most important thing, especially when it comes to Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums. Those who purchase what the Elves make vote with their Beans and by telling others about how crunchy or creamy their donuts are.

(It seems to me that if the Bean Counters and the Elves want to please the Haze brothers with Tales Of Sales, perhaps the Elves should produce a D&D tabletop game that fairies(almost D&D players like fantasy novel readers, serious chess players or CRPG players) would like but WITHOUT completely removing all of the crunchy AND cream like the last three incarnations of Beginner's D&D did.

The legions of fans (Elves? Gnomes? how far are we stretching this metaphor?) that buy the "donuts" came from SOMEWHERE, you know. They began with the fairy-sized crunchy and creamy goodness. Fairies DO like Crunchy and Creamy, but in much smaller portions. Unfortunately, the donuts being made are too large for fairies' mouths and the rum is too strong.

That's the real reason why so many fairies are buying Neverwinter Mints, Dungeon Burgers, Warcaft Pie Morrowwind Soup. The Crunchy is ground up into a paste leaving creamy and the crunchy taste, without wearing out the poor fairies' jaws.

If the nuts are smaller, more Donuts will be bought. The Haze Brothers need more donuts sold? Fine, IN ADDITION TO ELF SIZED DONUTS, MAKE FAIRY-SIZED DONUTS!!!! (And don't stiff the fairies by removing ALL the crunch either. If there's no crunch, the fairies might as well play Scrabble.)

Then maybe, just maybe, I can get grandma to play.)

Just rememer, fellow Elves: the Bean counters keep the Elves from starving and the Haze Brothers keep the Bean Counters from being out-counted by faster, meaner Bean Counters in other donut-making enterprizes. The Bean Counters aren't evil, just cranky. The Haze Brothers aren't evil either, they just need to realise that Beans are better than a warehouse full of stale crunchy Donuts and flat strong Rum that nobody traded their beans for.

 

[seankreynolds]

Pre-statted characters and encounters are "flunchy". They're rules-based, sure, but much more setting specific, and therefore, less useful. Because, if you want to create an entire new world, do you want to populate it with pre-generated NPCs with the serial numbers filed off? (Well, maybe, maybe not...)

Actually, 90% of these pre-statted characters I'm talking about are "typical drow wizard level 1-10," "typical drow fighter level 1-10," etc. ... not world-specific stuff, or so light in world-specificness (i.e., Zhentarim wizard ... can be dropped into any game without changes) that the distinction is irrelevant.

 

[Blacksad]

Actually, 90% of these pre-statted characters I'm talking about are "typical drow wizard level 1-10," "typical drow fighter level 1-10," etc. ... not world-specific stuff, or so light in world-specificness (i.e., Zhentarim wizard ... can be dropped into any game without changes) that the distinction is irrelevant.

Here the problem might be what is the added value of those NPC versus the NPC in the DMG.

 

[der_kluge]

I have to agree with EN on this one. I used to DM exclusively, and then I transitioned to player. After I became a player, I found that I had time to work on a netbook. The netbook got the attention of Thunderhead Games, and now I write for them. In no way would I have the time to be a DM now that I write for TG. That being said, as a player my purchase decisions fall into two categories:
1) something I can use as a player
2) something I can use as a DM in the future because it's just too good. This will always fall into the world generic category.

For example, I would probably never buy anything for the Scarred Lands setting, simply because any game I ran would exist in the Bluffside world. I have no need for any SL stuff. Do I think it's good stuff? Absolutely, I just don't want it- too world specific for me. But, I bought Bastion's Alchemy and Herbalists book because it has a lot of good ideas in it, and I can use it both as a player, and as a DM in the future. Chaos Magic by Mongoose was the same way. Both are excellent books, and both add value to me as a player, and as a possible DM. I'm going to get Common Grounds because I believe I can get value from it as a DM in the future, and because I'll be sharing a booth with Jeff Colledge this coming weekend at FlatCon and I can get him to sign my copy.

I also own the FRCS, because it is an excellent book, does have some really great crunchy stuff that I can use as a player, but I'll probably never use it as a DM since I don't DM in FR.

But I think the DM/player thing is kind of two sides of the same coin - that coin being fluffy versus crunchy.

Crunchy stuff can be used by both players and DMs, but fluffy stuff is almost exclusively used by DMs. And many DMs won't want the fluffy stuff since they may not play in that world. Kaptain Kantrip and I agree here (*gasp*). Hence, any solely fluffy thing is only going to reach 1/4 of the gaming sector - DMs who play in the world, which in reality, makes up less than 25% because the DM to player ratio is probably lower than that. I.e., more players than DMs, not at a ratio of 1:4.

Anyhoo, I'm rambling now.