[Forked from Mearls] MMOs, virtual vs. imaginary worlds (reply to Umbran)

Mercurius

Legend
I'm forking this from here because we're (or I'm) going a bit off topic.

Mercurius said:
Except that MMOs will NEVER be able to replicate human imagination because human imagination is limitless, whereas MMOs are, by definition, finite and programmed.

But it does not have to be able to replicate human imagination in order to dominate. Whether human imagination is limitless or not is not really relevant - the market for leisure dollars is finite. The fact that published adventures and campaign settings (and, in fact, one major dominant rules sysstem) exist makes it clear that people don't need "infinite" variety in order to play a game. They simply need enough variety to keep things entertaining.

Yes, I agree--in terms of the market. I was talking more about the larger picture, that no simulating technology will ever be able to surpass reality. I think High-Definition TV is a good example--the ads say that it is "more real than life"; I find it to be glaring and harsh. It might have a sharper picture and even brighter colors than real life (sort of), but it doesn't have the same qualitative aspects, the same richness. Or we can look at CDs (or MP3s) vs. vinyl; vinyl, despite its imperfection, has a warmer tone, even more real I would say.

One of the problems with simulation technologies is that we can bypass that which we don't like; we can "smooth the edges" of the virtual space so that we don't have to experience them. This is one of the reasons, I think, many equate computer games with drug use (in addition to the addictiveness, of course!). You can kill things without feeling the blood spatter on your face. I would argue that, like junk food, you forever want more because there is little nourishment in the activity of video games. Where junk food feeds the body and by failing to give it sustenance tricks the body into thinking it wants more, video games feed the "soul" and fail to give it sustenance, thereby creating further need.

But yes, even now MMOs are far more popular than RPGs and other imagination-based activities. I see no way that this trend won't continue into the future. On the other hand, it may be that RPGs will continue to evolve, that they will even "morph" into something else, perhaps trickling into mainstream society in another form or fashion. It depends on whether there is a significant backlash against the rise in virtual technologies that we will see over the next few decades.

By way of an example, from what I've heard the business world is looking for more "right-brain thinkers" because of, for one, the exportation of the left-brain tasks overseas, particularly India; but it is also because creative, aesthetic thinking is becoming more and more relevant as our culture becomes ever-more "noospheric" (ala Teilhard de Chardin; that is, based within inner, mental space). So it may be--and this is my hope--that the imagination will continue to evolve alongside virtual technologies out of necessity; that in order to create and work within virtuality (whether games or the internet or the "Next Thing"*), we need greater creativity and imagination.

But the problem then (and now, really) is this: By relying on the imagination of others it is all too easy to not develop our own so that it atrophies through disuse. To quote Emerson: "Genius is always sufficiently the enemy of genius by over-influence." I am reminded of something Ursula K. Le Guin said, that she was glad that she didn't encounter Tolkien until she was an adult, until her own creativity had already come alive. The creative works of others may serve to inspire, but they also may imprison--if we do not take up our own work, if we do not light the creative fire within. This relates to what I called "soul sustenance" above, and my belief that each of us has an inherent need to create, to imagine, to explore inner space and "bring forth worlds" (in a non-specific way).




*NOTE: By "Next Thing" I mean the next major technological revolution. We had the telegraph then the telephone, radio, television, and now the internet. What is next? I would think some sort of interactive virtual reality or space that we can enter into. When? Well, let's look at history. 1794 is considered the date for the invention of the non-electric telegraph; the electric telegraph was developed over the first half of the 19th century, with 1844 bringing the first commercial (news) usage. The radio and telephone became commercially available in the 1890s, television in the late 1930s, and finally internet in the late 80s and early 90s. So it is interesting to see a pattern of about fifty years between developments, which would mean that we won't see the next leap until the 2030 or 2040 (which, eerily enough, corresponds with Ray Kurzweil's "Singularity", but that is another discussion).
 

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I think a video game in which you felt virtual blood splatter on your face would actually be a potentially rather addictive experience. Just disengage your moral sense and engage in a wild power fantasy of slaughter.
 

But the problem then (and now, really) is this: By relying on the imagination of others it is all too easy to not develop our own so that it atrophies through disuse.

This is a valid concern I think. Will a generation that spends all its time immersed in the creations of others develop new ideas as readily? Is it just me or do we already see this happening? Relauches of classic adventure modules, nothing much from Hollywood other than remakes and movies based off of old tv shows. Idea recycling is happening a lot already.
 

(((this is a repost from the orginal thread)))

I have been told there are new 'home made mods' for many games already (morrow wind comes to mind). Now I have been told that city of heroes is working on something like this. Now look at the idea of how game day is suppose to work tommoro, heck even look at the way the mods h1-e3 are set up. Think back to how the game table was suppose to work.


Now imagin that 10-15 years from now we have a 3d game table for 6e. It allows you to use a system like never winter nights, but you build a 3d world (or atleast part of it) You all log in from 6pm-11pm on every tuesday night. You rp through a (guild chat?) program, and the DM still places the monsters, still controls the NPCs, heck he still talk for them, However once intiative is rolled it goes to round by round (kinda like the final fantasy games) so it looks something like battle chess.

now that is 15 years from now (infact i think that could be doen by great and expensive things today, but it has to be offordable too), but imagin 15 years from that...We have no idea how huge a jump that will be.
 

Yes, I agree--in terms of the market. I was talking more about the larger picture, that no simulating technology will ever be able to surpass reality.

But there's no reason to think that this is true, in theory. The human senses have limited fidelity and resolution. Your vision only goes down to a given size resolution, and can distinguish a limited number of shades and hues. There are limits to your physical system. All a simulation needs to do is match or exceed the ability of your sensorium. We are certainly not able to beat the human senses in general yet, but there's no known technical reason why that cannot happen, eventually.

Or we can look at CDs (or MP3s) vs. vinyl; vinyl, despite its imperfection, has a warmer tone, even more real I would say.

So, that just means one recording and playback has less fidelity than another - it by no means demonstrates that no recording can ever match reality. And that "warmer tone" does not necessarily equate to "higher fidelity". Do not confuse a more pleasing sound with a more accurate sound.

We do, at this time, have the technology to record and play back audio information with greater fidelity than is discernible by the human ear. You cannot do it with consumer-market CDs and stereo equipment, but it can be done. And the Hubble Space telescope (and in fact *any* telescope) can catch more information from a given patch of sky than the human eye can - that's kind of the point of having them.
 

There's something else I'd like to add to Umbran's point. Even not taking into account money, there's another factor: TIME.

Tabletop RPGs are, imho, fading for one reason because of scheduling conflicts. People simply have more going on in their lives. Getting time to play RPGs is tough for everyone I've met, every game I've tried to run.

Compare this to a video game, where you can pick it up at ANY time. If you have an hour to kill, you can play it. You can level up your character in the middle of the night. You can find a group to do your quests easily. And there are massive Guilds which will schedule their LIFE around the game, so you can play giant games several times a week.
 

You cannot do it with consumer-market CDs and stereo equipment, but it can be done.

For many people, we can do this with CDs already. I've done some testing (on myself) in the lab, and the limit of my hearing is well inside what a CD can reproduce. I'm at the bottom end of the human scale, but I'm not an outlier (my wife's range sneaks in just past what CDs can reproduce).

As far as vinyl records sounding better - they just sound "worse" (as in they mimic the recorded sound less accurately) in a way that some people find pleasing. In the same way that a good portrait painting can sometimes be more pleasant to look at than a (more accurate) photograph.
 

I don't think that MMO's are going to reduce creativity and imagination any less than any other mass media, including the printed word. As long as human beings aren't merely passive consumers of ideas (and they never will be no matter what Hegel or Marx say) then they will react to the world around them and imagine new ideas. It isn't as if RPG's are that much of a boon to imagination anyway. Sure it gives an outlet for creative impulses, but the rules and flavour behind the rules pretty much assures that most of the creation will be fairly derivative.

I have recently decided I don't like making homebrew epic campaign arcs. In 2e my play was too sporadic for them, and in 3e the prep work was so monumental that I just gave up on it. Having run a 4e campaign that has much less prep work because of the system, I was finally able to do the long multi-level epic campaign I always wanted to do. I also found out that I hated it, because I found it was creatively unrewarding to create for something so ephemeral as a D&D session with your friends. I am having much more fun with a Nentir Vale sandbox game that was inspired by LostSoul's threads here on enworld, and I'm having much more fun linking dungeons and short scenerios together than I did with my homebrew adventure path.

In MMO's, I don't have any problems with the finite options in WoW per say, I just really hate fetch quests, trying to get slain creatures to drop items, other players doing the same quests as me at the same time, and re-spawning villains. I did love the graphics, the sense of exploration, and the exotic locations. If Bioware does what they are promising with "The Old Republic" and provide a story based MMO, D&D might have some serious competition.
 

So, that just means one recording and playback has less fidelity than another - it by no means demonstrates that no recording can ever match reality. And that "warmer tone" does not necessarily equate to "higher fidelity". Do not confuse a more pleasing sound with a more accurate sound.

Indeed. CDs have been better recordings than analog since before 1990. Conversely, many modern recording artists use filters to produce warm, soft, crackling, or slightly irregular tones for artistic reasons. I, personally, am fond of the slightly tinny but very warm Gramaphone sound of the 1920s and I appreciate modern recordings that mimic it.
 

[FONT=&quot]Lots of good thoughts—I’ll do my best to reply to all of them. [/FONT]
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I think a video game in which you felt virtual blood splatter on your face would actually be a potentially rather addictive experience. Just disengage your moral sense and engage in a wild power fantasy of slaughter.

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[FONT=&quot]Good point. We already have passive versions of this with “gorror” movies (gore flicks). It is one thing getting a thrill from being scared (which is quite invigorating), another from watching human beings be mangled. I don’t get it, myself.[/FONT]
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This is a valid concern I think. Will a generation that spends all its time immersed in the creations of others develop new ideas as readily? Is it just me or do we already see this happening? Relauches of classic adventure modules, nothing much from Hollywood other than remakes and movies based off of old tv shows. Idea recycling is happening a lot already.
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[FONT=&quot]Yes, exactly. It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between the rise of derivative media and that of immersive technologies. On the other hand, as movies have gotten more and more popular they have catered more and more to the “lowest common denominator.” There have always been bad movies, but it seems that there are less movies of depth and substance, at least in the big theaters. But the specific point of idea recycling is an important one and something I find disheartening, both as an occasional movie-goer and a creator/artist. For example, why did we need another iteration of Star Trek? Why can’t someone come up with a new franchise with fresh ideas? The bottom line is obvious: the Almighty Dollar is more assured in a Star Trek remake than in something new. But I also think there is something more going on, what you are pointing at.

Now imagin that 10-15 years from now we have a 3d game table for 6e. It allows you to use a system like never winter nights, but you build a 3d world (or atleast part of it) You all log in from 6pm-11pm on every tuesday night. You rp through a (guild chat?) program, and the DM still places the monsters, still controls the NPCs, heck he still talk for them, However once intiative is rolled it goes to round by round (kinda like the final fantasy games) so it looks something like battle chess.

now that is 15 years from now (infact i think that could be doen by great and expensive things today, but it has to be offordable too), but imagin 15 years from that...We have no idea how huge a jump that will be.
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[FONT=&quot]I think what you are pointing at here might be similar to what seems to obvious next revolution in RPGs and MMOs: an integration of the two, where the DM is able to “create” a MMO on the fly, or at least pre-program an adventure that the players can run through that is orchestrated by the DM and not the program itself. I have to admit the idea is alluring, although it doesn’t avoid “the problem of imagination” I’m so concerned about, but rather replaces it with computer simulation.

But there's no reason to think that this is true, in theory. The human senses have limited fidelity and resolution. Your vision only goes down to a given size resolution, and can distinguish a limited number of shades and hues. There are limits to your physical system. All a simulation needs to do is match or exceed the ability of your sensorium. We are certainly not able to beat the human senses in general yet, but there's no known technical reason why that cannot happen, eventually.
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[FONT=&quot]On a sensory level, yes. But what about the internal experience? I for one disavow the Lockeian sentiment that our interior life is merely a reflection of, or reaction to, the sensory (I’m much more of a Romantic than an Empiricist).

So, that just means one recording and playback has less fidelity than another - it by no means demonstrates that no recording can ever match reality. And that "warmer tone" does not necessarily equate to "higher fidelity". Do not confuse a more pleasing sound with a more accurate sound.
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[FONT=&quot]Fidelity only covers one slice of the pie, if you will. I would say that the “warmer tone” is separate from fidelity. What makes it pleasing? I would say something other than fidelity; the “warmth” isn’t merely nostalgiac, either (although probably is to some extent), but something more subtle, something more human. It is that digital vs. analog thing. More on this in my reply to amysrevenge below.[/FONT]
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There's something else I'd like to add to Umbran's point. Even not taking into account money, there's another factor: TIME.

Tabletop RPGs are, imho, fading for one reason because of scheduling conflicts. People simply have more going on in their lives. Getting time to play RPGs is tough for everyone I've met, every game I've tried to run.

Compare this to a video game, where you can pick it up at ANY time. If you have an hour to kill, you can play it. You can level up your character in the middle of the night. You can find a group to do your quests easily. And there are massive Guilds which will schedule their LIFE around the game, so you can play giant games several times a week.
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[FONT=&quot]It is interesting to note that you here more stories of MMO players spending endless hours playing than tabletop RPGers. It would seem that the difficulty with RPGs has less to do with the amount of free time people have, and more to do with the ability to match up busy schedules. I also think this is somewhat a generational thing: the bulk of TTRPGers are 25-40+, and thus have careers and families to contend with, whereas MMOers tend to be younger and with less responsibilities.

As far as vinyl records sounding better - they just sound "worse" (as in they mimic the recorded sound less accurately) in a way that some people find pleasing. In the same way that a good portrait painting can sometimes be more pleasant to look at than a (more accurate) photograph.
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[FONT=&quot]This cuts to the heart of the matter but I see this very differently. I would ask, why are paintings “more pleasant to look at” than a photograph? Is it the lack of accuracy? Maybe, but I would rather say that the lack of accuracy allows for something else to come through, something of the human soul—not only of the subject of the artwork, but the artist him or herself. I am not so sure that the photographer “enters into” the photo, at least not nearly as much.

I don't think that MMO's are going to reduce creativity and imagination any less than any other mass media, including the printed word.
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I personally think they already have.

Having run a 4e campaign that has much less prep work because of the system, I was finally able to do the long multi-level epic campaign I always wanted to do. I also found out that I hated it, because I found it was creatively unrewarding to create for something so ephemeral as a D&D session with your friends.
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[FONT=&quot]This is an interesting point, but I think it depends upon one’s temperament. In this regard RPGs are more akin to performance art; I assume that you probably would find acting or a music performance creatively unrewarding in the same manner. This may be why I enjoy world-building at least as much as actually playing: the world has a life of its own and exists outside of the game session, whereas the game itself, the adventure session, is a moment in time.[/FONT]
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