[Forked from Mearls] MMOs, virtual vs. imaginary worlds (reply to Umbran)

Tabletop RPGs are, imho, fading for one reason because of scheduling conflicts. People simply have more going on in their lives. Getting time to play RPGs is tough for everyone I've met, every game I've tried to run.

Compare this to a video game, where you can pick it up at ANY time. If you have an hour to kill, you can play it. You can level up your character in the middle of the night. You can find a group to do your quests easily. And there are massive Guilds which will schedule their LIFE around the game, so you can play giant games several times a week.

This is a much, much, much more important form of attrition for D&D than orther games about orcs and swords. Games are moving to a new format, a digital format. The table-top is becoming antiquated.

Which is part of why a digital tabletop is not an option for D&D -- it needs to be done. And perhaps paired with a dynamic 24-hour active game-and-player search.

I think we'll start realizing these things before 5e, though they might not start to take off until then.
 

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Mercurious said:
Look at Wizards of the Coast, where the first three settings are the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dark Sun. What about a new setting and not just another kitchen sink one, but something thematically innovative and unique? We can hope for 2011, but I'm kind of doubtful. But it is a tricky business, because we might ask the question of how should WotC "reinvent the wheel" with 4th edition. Do you just go through all the hundred or so hardcover books for 3.x and basically re-arrange them and 4thedify them? Or do you try something different? Do we really need a 4th edition of Frostburn? Probably not. But we do need the monster books, and I suppose many need the "Power" books, although with D&D Insider they are becoming rather superfluous. But I'm getting a bit off topic; maybe a new thread on this...

I think you're looking at things from the wrong perpective. Why did they do FR and Eberron first? Well, money. Flagship settings and all that. If they didn't, fans would have their heads.

Why Darksun? Again, it's something that's been called for for years. It has a good, solid hardcore following. And, it's been out of print for quite a while, meaning that new players probably haven't even seen it before. Mine the old to build the new is hardly something new. It's been done for far more years than just WOTC.

But, I disagree with your basic premise that video games or MMO's are somehow less imaginative than other activities. It's not true. For one, it's become easier and easier for users to create content. Secondly, even within the games, it has become possible to create elements and express artistic ability. Even if it's just dressing your toon, it's no different than someone making a character for a PnP game. Both are imaginative exercises.

And that's ignoring, of course, all the RP only servers as well.

But, even beyond MMO's, video games, unlike just about any media, is are not passive. You have to actively engage with a video game. Unlike books or TV, you can't just sit back and passively consume the media. It's a game and like any game, you have to participate.

Now, it might be mindlessly button mashing, and that's fair enough. But, lots of games have elaborate storylines that react to your actions. And that level of complexity will only increase as time goes on. The mindless grind games are pretty much going away, replaced by games with storylines and plots. Because that's what people want.

Further down the road, it will be possible for players to create storylines and plots as well.
 

Now, it might be mindlessly button mashing, and that's fair enough. But, lots of games have elaborate storylines that react to your actions. And that level of complexity will only increase as time goes on. The mindless grind games are pretty much going away, replaced by games with storylines and plots. Because that's what people want.
Mindless button mashing might be a little hyperbole, but I think in general, it won't get away.

Just like Hack & Slash didn't go away just because White Wolf created its Storytelling games. It always depends on what you want from your game - at any given time. Sometimes people are just in the mood for "mindless" button mashing. Sometimes we just want to go out and slay Orcs, if necessary with their evil-by-nature babies. ;)
Sometimes we want to experience an epic story with romance, intrigue and mysteries.

Some games might turn out to be able to do both. Some games might be more specialized for one variant.
 

I think you're looking at things from the wrong perpective. Why did they do FR and Eberron first? Well, money. Flagship settings and all that. If they didn't, fans would have their heads.

Did you read the paragraph before the one you quoted? I said pretty much just that: that FR and Eberron were money-based decisions and I understood that; actually, that was part of the point I was making: such decisions are based upon finances, not creativity, which is problematic if we're concerned with the "evolution of ideas."

Why Darksun? Again, it's something that's been called for for years. It has a good, solid hardcore following. And, it's been out of print for quite a while, meaning that new players probably haven't even seen it before. Mine the old to build the new is hardly something new. It's been done for far more years than just WOTC.

Of course it makes sense, and I don't have a problem with a Dark Sun reboot--actually, I look forward to it. But I'm pointing at an industry--and media in general--trend to remake something before coming up within something new. The Star Trek movie is a perfect example of this; I for one would have much rather seen a new science fiction franchise than a new take on an old horse.

But, I disagree with your basic premise that video games or MMO's are somehow less imaginative than other activities. It's not true. For one, it's become easier and easier for users to create content. Secondly, even within the games, it has become possible to create elements and express artistic ability. Even if it's just dressing your toon, it's no different than someone making a character for a PnP game. Both are imaginative exercises.

We're just going to have to disagree on this one; you say it's not true and I say that it is ;). For example, "users creating content" is a far less imaginative act than a writer creating a world and story from scratch. Sure, the user created content could be more original, but it is still playing with pre-fabricated images. It is like playing with Legos rather than sculpting.

I am not saying that there is no creativity or imagination involved in MMOs, just significantly less than, say, tabletop RPGs, writing, painting, and other forms of artistic/creative activities.

But, even beyond MMO's, video games, unlike just about any media, is are not passive. You have to actively engage with a video game. Unlike books or TV, you can't just sit back and passively consume the media. It's a game and like any game, you have to participate.

Yes, I agree. But I think Gary Gygax's analogy of "video games are to RPGs what movies are to books" is very true. We're talking about two different orders of creative activity. The former category (video games and movies) requires less imaginative work than the latter (rpgs and books); I would say, as a general rule, far less and, as I have said, even a potentially detrimental influence in that they replace the inner capacity to create images with pre-fabricated ones, thus denying us the experience of creating images ourselves.

Now, it might be mindlessly button mashing, and that's fair enough. But, lots of games have elaborate storylines that react to your actions. And that level of complexity will only increase as time goes on. The mindless grind games are pretty much going away, replaced by games with storylines and plots. Because that's what people want.

Further down the road, it will be possible for players to create storylines and plots as well.

I can certainly see how video games can evolve, and probably have evolved. But they still are what they are and the basic differentiation between outer simulation and inner imagination applies.
 

We're just going to have to disagree on this one; you say it's not true and I say that it is ;). For example, "users creating content" is a far less imaginative act than a writer creating a world and story from scratch. Sure, the user created content could be more original, but it is still playing with pre-fabricated images. It is like playing with Legos rather than sculpting.

I am not saying that there is no creativity or imagination involved in MMOs, just significantly less than, say, tabletop RPGs, writing, painting, and other forms of artistic/creative activities.

Users creating content in easily shared environment has yet to make its turn around swing.
The games were easier and people made and hosted there own envrionments easily back in the day I worked on fantasy quake game hacks with my own models and working on the AI for Dragons in it was fun.

Originally creating personalizations were very limited but relatively easy. (Making a character skin was digital painting and similarly creative as any of the activities you mention). Creating or modifying a model and its various animations was difficult... but not high science ok not high art either... but art is part sensibilities.

The tools for interacting with these things developed and it became more specialized learning to do 3DSMax etc... now the tools in oblivion for shaping your characters face are wonderfully easy like the police sometimes use for helping model bad guys...but they are not so easy to share. (hint these definitions of appearences probably would take up less band width that old quake skins did and people had less band width than they do now.)

Very personalized PC's could be very awesomely created using them but i want more and more options and I baulk at there limits ... why just the face? why cant I put a cleft in the chin and why just pre-packaged hair models.

Any way users creating content could be at the beginning of an upswing not just in terms of quality of the results but ease of doing it more ability to express your character visually atleast... no reason art cannot be produced in the medium ... not just consumed. That is my opinion.
 
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Merc, I've been out of town and on vacation. Sorry for the delay. I'll respond as I can, even though I'm kinda bushed. Didn't hit the sack til 0400 an then got back up at 0700. I need to sleep and not sure this will make a great deal of sense, but here goes anyhow.


Very interesting stuff here. The concern that arises for me is that even if we come up with technologies that enhance "Imaginary Enterprises," how will they enhance our own inner capacities to create said enterprises? An analogy would be if we could come up with a pill that took away a smoker's interest in smoking; great, they won't smoke anymore--at least for the time being--but it creates a reliance on something external (a drug, most likely), and it doesn't build the correlative capacity required to quit smoking, namely willpower.

A perhaps more accurate or appropriate analogy would be the use of psychedelics to stimulate visionary experience and/or imaginative experience. In the right context, fine. But what about the artist who can only create with a joint in hand? Or the shaman who relies on psilocybin or peyote to do "soul healings"?

I spent my teenage years and early twenties studying and practicing Raja Yoga. Later I trained briefly with a Sufi mystic, then took up the Philokalia and the practice of the Desert Fathers. In my twenties and thirties I trained under various people and experimented myself with different techniques to enhance my intelligence, observational capacities, sensory abilities, problem solving capabilities, and analytical acumen. (That was while studying physics and training as a detective. My earlier training was more geared towards the priesthood.)

So personally I'm more for that way, for the intentional trading of somatic, mental, psychological, and spiritual capabilities. Rather than seeking out chemical or other means of enhancement. (Though over time I did develop bio-chemical formulas designed to augment biochemical function in my brain and nervous system, and to help my body repair more quickly from injury - I suffered a lot of injuries when young from doing both dangerous and sometimes stupid and reckless things. So I'm not against augmentation, I just carefully target how it is employed and to what end.) Trained capabilities far more accurate and acute, sharp and focused (as long as you retain command over your own brain and mind), you retain far greater control of the extent of your own capabilities, and you can practice whatever you need to whenever you like, and do not have to rely upon any external stimuli to artificially stimulate or attempt to control your operational capabilities. It's not as messy, random, or unpredictable as drug use or the reliance upon any other form of basically uncontrollable external mechanisms.

However, to be brutally honest training in the way I described (or intensive training of any kind) requires a lot of discipline and focus, is mentally exhausting, often psychologically draining (I'm sure I came close to a nervous breakdown on occasion), costly to your relationships, and is very time-consuming. So, to be fair, it also has its negative side(s). C'est la vie, I reckon. As they say, all work requires labor.


This goes into the whole issue of transhumanism and my belief that in the future we will see a real split in humanity, those that have developed with and through technology, and those that have developed inner, even mystical, capacities. I have no doubt that the latter will be far fewer than the former, but we are already seeing this occuring.

I have my own theory about that. I call it God Technology. If there is some kind of split, as you propose, I don't suppose it will be all that great a split in motive, as much as in manner. To me all technology is leading eventually towards God Technology. That includes electronic, spintronic, quantum, mechanical, computing and AI, etc, as well as genetic, bimolecular, and biological. They are different technological forms, to be sure, different types of vehicles you might say. But in the end they are all methods of transportation. So destinations will be very similar. Unconsciously, or sub-consciously, they may seem misaligned, even antagonistic in operation, but in actual fact I suspect they will be parallel efforts of progress and development.


I'd love to hear more about this.

This also goes back to me about experimentation in imaginary enterprises. As it relates to perceptual and thinking modes. But rather than go into a long explanation, which I'm not up for recreating, I'll just include part of an exchange with my buddies form one of my email networks. Talking about perceptual modes and attempts to gain control over them. First though I gotta find it in my files. By the way, just as a little side-line, I think gaming can also be employed as a tool for changing or altering perceptual mode(s).

Now I'm gonna hit the hay cause I'm totally wiped out. I ain't as young as I used to be. Once again, enjoyed the thread. Night all.


The Counter-Perceptual Mind:

extract from email letter: When I first received this (the turning woman) I was working on a coding project called, logically enough, the Code, which many of you will receive from me a little later on. Interestingly enough I could only see the figure moving clockwise at that time (when I first viewed it). This seems to be my default way of viewing the figure, but that may be because my mind is currently absorbed with this particular project (the Code), which I have been thinking on awhile. This rather fascinated me because I would have thought that working on a coding project would be a so-called "Left Brain" function (not that I really believe in this left-brain/right-brain junk, I don't for the most part, and never have). Instead according to this I was occupying my mind in a "right-brain manner."

But then I decided to try an experiment by shifting the way my mind functions based upon task-orientation. I pulled out a poem I was working on last night and worked on it for about 15 minutes and when I came back she was still moving clockwise but after starting at the figure for only a few moments I saw her shift, starting at the legs, and move in the opposite direction. I looked away several times and back again but could not get the figure to move clockwise again. Not until I walked away completely and started reading. Then when I returned I perceived that she was moving clockwise again.

Anywho it was a very simple little experiment but I plan to greatly expand it. I want to see how what I am studying, occupying myself with, or am working on will affect how I first perceive the figure and thereafter how long it takes my mind to be able to refocus so as to see the figure moving in the opposite direction.


Some of the subjects I'll be studying, or work I'll be doing in relation to these experiments will include:

Reading prose (fiction)

Writing prose

Reading poetry

Writing poetry

Inventing

Fixing or repairing something, or disassembling/reassembling something/working with modern technology

Working with tools

Drawing or Sketching, and/or painting

Working on an experiment (I'm gonna try chemistry, physics, psychology, and biological/biochemistry experiments and my suspicion is that different scientific pursuits will evoke different perceptual modes)

Listening to music

Writing/composing music

Playing the piano

Working on a computer program

Physical Training/Athletic Activity

Yard Work

Design (architectural)

My CAP/cyberwarfare studies

Reading a biography

Reading non-fiction

Studying language, philology, and codes

Using money, making purchases, studying economics

Watching a film

Watching a documentary

Developing plans, goals, and objectives

Reading, studying, and analyzing scripture

Seeing a film

Taking photographs

After eating (it will be interesting to see how diet might possibly affect results)

After sunbathing

After sensory deprivation

After praying

After meditating

After recreating or playing a game, or playing with the kids and dogs

After a hike in nature

After being involved in charity or philanthropic work

After complex problem solving

Right before going to bed

Immediately after arising from sleep


My initial supposition is that most people are not really "fixed right-brain/left-brain" individuals but rather that how most people perceive any event or process or problem depends primarily upon what type of activity or mode of operation in which they happen to be engaged. (I've also noticed that according to this chart my thought processes seem to be reversed as compared to how things should be operating.) Another supposition I have is that in order to study ideas regarding "right-brain/left-brain" most researchers have probably conducted experiments under controlled laboratory conditions. Which I suspect triggers a "work-like mental environment" in the individual. That to be honest the very act of conducting many laboratory experiments puts the test subject into a "work-mode" or "occupational frame of mind" and brain reaction. Since most modern occupations are based upon technical skills of one kind or another I suspect this natural perceptual and "frame of mind" aspect of laboratory settings would lead most modern researchers to conclude that most individuals (in developed countries anyways) are naturally left-brainers when in fact their real mode of perceptual analysis depends upon where they are and what they happen to be concentrating upon or engaged in at the moment. That is to say it is not the "natural frame of mind that necessarily determines how a thing is perceived, but the necessities of the environment, action, and psychological state that determine what perceptual mode is likely to be employed at any given activity. The activity demands shape the perceptual mode likely to be employed. Of course if an individual spends most of his or her time engaged in a particular perceptual mode or way of thinking then it might be more difficult, because of lack of practice, to employ a different mode, or one might even try to employ a non-efficient mode simply out of lack of practice with other modes. However practice with a wider range of modal capabilities would likely easily fix this problem in most individuals. Nothing then is or would be fixed in most normal individuals other than habit. And habit can be changed by application of other, and in many cases, better methodologies.

For instance, as an example of what I mean about both habit and practiced environment, if left-brain/right-brain experiments were conducted not in a laboratory but at a park or in a playground or at an opera-theatre or movie theatre then I think most subjects would produce very different results. And if the experiment were constructed to appear as a game or entertainment then different results would develop than if the experiment were presented as a laboratory investigation. However most experiments naturally evoke an underlying response in the test subject to want to "figure-out" the nature of the test, problem, and experiment, and therefore the nature and structure of the experiment itself clouds or occludes or alters the perceptual mode of the test subject. The experiment itself then likely obscures the true psychological outlook and perceptual nature of the test subject by the presumptions of the way the experiment is structured (this is always true of experimentation to at least some degree, but it is an obvious and shallow defect if you analyze the problem involving modes of thought and perception regarding assumed and experimental left-brain/right-brain matters for just a few moments.)

The study will probably take a couple of weeks or more (maybe a few months depending on how and how often I repeat the or modify the parameters of each sub-category) but I suspect it will yield some very interesting results and may even give me a clue for developing techniques of how I may intentionally shift my modes of thought and perception at will. Of course I'll have to develop exercises or specific techniques based upon my findings and experimentation but that shouldn't be very hard to master once I understand the basic correspondences. I'm also though not entirely sure that the same methods would work for everyone, but that some people think in modes of perceptual analysis that are obverse or in reverse to others. (That is apparently the case with me since my initial experiments seem to be in perceptual "reverse-mode" to the stated chart - of course I have no idea if the chart information is correct because I've never thought the theory true and so never gave it serious credit and don't know whether most researchers consider this or that side of the brain to be right or left. I studied it briefly years ago but even then it immediately and intuitively struck me to be about as scientifically sound as Darwin's initial theory of evolution. So I never again returned to the theory seriously for obvious reasons. It was so full of obvious holes, contradictions, and misapplications that I abandoned it as being worthy of much study.)

If my counter-theory proves true then it might even lead to a couple of new inventions, including new sensory equipment which can enhance perception by simultaneously not only augmenting sensory capabilities, but by actually altering or entraining the sensory capabilities of the user specifically to the current and required task in which they are involved. In other words if my theory proves out then I should be able to sue it to help design sensory equipment which not only enhances the ability to perceive the target, but actually entrains the mind (by matching perceptual mode to task) to not just perceive the target better, but to understand how the target is functioning over and against and within it's environment and maybe even to help anticipate target activities.

Of course you'd also want to develop mental and psychological techniques by which people can rapidly shift their perceptual modes to accommodate the complexities of a given problem or whenever the parameters or elements of a given problem shift according to circumstances. In that way the trained ability to shift modes of perception and analysis would aid in problem solving.

I also intend to incorporate the results of these experiments into the basic framework of my personal Renaissance Project and the
Renaissance Gild.

end extract.
 
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Did you read the paragraph before the one you quoted? I said pretty much just that: that FR and Eberron were money-based decisions and I understood that; actually, that was part of the point I was making: such decisions are based upon finances, not creativity, which is problematic if we're concerned with the "evolution of ideas."

Of course it makes sense, and I don't have a problem with a Dark Sun reboot--actually, I look forward to it. But I'm pointing at an industry--and media in general--trend to remake something before coming up within something new. The Star Trek movie is a perfect example of this; I for one would have much rather seen a new science fiction franchise than a new take on an old horse.



The "trend to remake something before coming up with something new" is as old as time. "There is nothing new under the sun" was written thousands of years ago, and it's still true today. Good grief, look at the bazillion Tolkien rip-offs that populate fantasy.

I'd much rather seen a remake done well than watch the same story get rehashed for the umpteenth time simply because the author feels the need to do something "different".

We're just going to have to disagree on this one; you say it's not true and I say that it is ;). For example, "users creating content" is a far less imaginative act than a writer creating a world and story from scratch. Sure, the user created content could be more original, but it is still playing with pre-fabricated images. It is like playing with Legos rather than sculpting.

Ballocks. I'm sorry, but that's utter ballocks. There is no inherently superior form of creativity just because you feel the need to not use existing materials. Just because someone tries to do something from scratch in no way guarantees that it will be creative at all. Again, a bazillion Tolkienesque fantasy books, all creating their own world, all trying to do their own spin, all pretty much the same.

I am not saying that there is no creativity or imagination involved in MMOs, just significantly less than, say, tabletop RPGs, writing, painting, and other forms of artistic/creative activities.

Why? Why is there more creativity involved in a tabletop RPG? I've played with DM's, heck, I've been a DM, using a prefab module. And I'm sure most of the people reading this have been as well. How is that any more creative than playing an MMO, or creating content for something like Half-Life or whatnot?

Yes, I agree. But I think Gary Gygax's analogy of "video games are to RPGs what movies are to books" is very true. We're talking about two different orders of creative activity. The former category (video games and movies) requires less imaginative work than the latter (rpgs and books); I would say, as a general rule, far less and, as I have said, even a potentially detrimental influence in that they replace the inner capacity to create images with pre-fabricated ones, thus denying us the experience of creating images ourselves.

Again, ballocks.

Video games are active. Reading a book is passive. Writing a book may be active, but, for the vast majority of people out there, they will never write that book. Yet lots of people, at the very least, decorate their house in Second Life, interact with various other players in character, create stories and whatnot about their characters.

Yup, you might imagine the pictures when you read a book. But, again, it's entirely passive. You consume the book, your eyes scanning from side to side, never once actually contributing in the slightest to the text.

In a video game, you are contributing to the storyline of the game from the second you start.

I can certainly see how video games can evolve, and probably have evolved. But they still are what they are and the basic differentiation between outer simulation and inner imagination applies.

How is this not just a rehash of "TV is killing our children's brains"? For decades, we heard how life would just get better if kids would turn off the TV and start reading. It's too simplistic. It's not the answer. "Video games are making people dumb" has been studied time and time again and proven false time and time again.

There's a very good reason why the video game industry is low larger than the movie industry. It actively engages the user. Unlike movies or novels, the user can actively participate in the story, shape the story by his or her own actions.
 

Again, ballocks.

Video games are active. Reading a book is passive. Writing a book may be active, but, for the vast majority of people out there, they will never write that book. Yet lots of people, at the very least, decorate their house in Second Life, interact with various other players in character, create stories and whatnot about their characters.

Yup, you might imagine the pictures when you read a book. But, again, it's entirely passive. You consume the book, your eyes scanning from side to side, never once actually contributing in the slightest to the text.

In a video game, you are contributing to the storyline of the game from the second you start.

Huss, I'm gonna disagree with this to a certain extent. I personally don't think any two people reading a passage from a book read it exactly the same way. Their own particular imaginations engage and interpret the passages differently than everyone else. (Or put more accurately, there is a certain baseline of "we're all reading the same thing here," and another baseline in which the individual's minds "interpret" whatever they see through the prism of how their own imagination functions.) For instance you reading a battle scene from Tolkien will imagine the visual and sensory and event and place-type particulars differently than will I because it is not a real place, and we each have a base of differently strode databanks of imagination and memory experiences. There is a certain degree of universality to human imagination, but also a high degree of individuality within human imaginations.

Therefore our own imaginations have to actively engage (to one degree or another), using our own particular experiences as a backdrop, in order to fashion "imagination images" of what we envision. Indeed the artist himself has his own images in mind, the reader their own, and critics their own, or there could never be different interpretations and disputes about the details and meanings of the contents of a book. That happens even with non-fiction works. So reading a book is not in that sense a "passive enterprise." You do have to contribute to the text by overlaying your own imaginative enterprises onto the text to give it meaning. Otherwise words would be just like numbers, they would have only a quantitative value, and no qualitative value.

I will agree with you that reading a book is a semi-passive enterprise in the sense that the reader is not normally expected by the author to "change, alter, or manipulate the environment, events, or characters," in the sense in which we now think of commonly occurring in many video or computer or alternative or virtual reality exercises. (This is actually where I think you and Merc are really disagreeing on this matter, not in the sense of "overall imaginative-reality," but in the sense of "degree of manipulability." And relatedly, I think you both feel that different tools for the imagination require different degrees of effort and exercise in order to successfully employ them. And I think that is both right in some ways, and wrong in others.) Or modern RP games for that matter. Though on occasion when reading a book I say to myself, within the confines of my own imagination, "what if that building were constructed this way, instead of that way?" or "what if the character were like this instead of that?" or "what if the battle goes this way instead of that way?" So even with a book you can change things with your mind by using your imagination in ways differently than is commonly employed. I'm sure I'm not alone in this respect. My buddies sand I used to argue Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky a lot and I often noticed they were considering storyline changes in our arguments.


How is this not just a rehash of "TV is killing our children's brains"? For decades, we heard how life would just get better if kids would turn off the TV and start reading. It's too simplistic. It's not the answer. "Video games are making people dumb" has been studied time and time again and proven false time and time again.

There's a very good reason why the video game industry is low larger than the movie industry. It actively engages the user. Unlike movies or novels, the user can actively participate in the story, shape the story by his or her own actions.

However what I said above being said I personally think even degrees of manipulability are really also variations "in kind of manipulability." That is to say, to use the examples already expressed, that television is not the culprit of imaginative decay, but that bad television is. Television, books, film, video games, RPGs, etc. are merely tools for employment. Every tool has built in advantages and built in disadvantages. (You can use a tool effectively to address and solve certain types of problems, but it cannot be used nearly so effectively to address other types of situations and problems. This is why there is no "Universal Tool." It really depends upon the exact nature of the problem, as much as the nature of the tool, as to how effective any particular tool will be in solving any particular problem.)

Bad television is a bad tool of the mind and the imagination. Bad RPGs are bad tools, bad books are poor tools, bad films are deficient tools. On the other hand really good television and really good films and really good RPGs and really good video games are excellent tools for the imagination and the mind and perhaps even the body (as in stimulating beneficial immune system and other types of biological reactions).

Now will television, even the best television, stimulate in the same way that an excellent book will? Of course not, they are different tools with different types of applications. However both can have really beneficial effects within their own sphere or domain of potential influence. (And personally it has been my experience that a really good book might inspire a real world action in me which is of enormous benefit and a really good video game or an excellent film might give me a real world idea very much worth pursuing. Again it is not the particular medium, it is the application that follows, which to me means that anything can inspire anything else. How many good religious or psychological ideas have I had develop out of my scientific experiments, and how many times have I sat in mediation and found that because of that spiritual exercise I developed a solution for a difficult problem or had a good idea for an worthwhile invention? To me imagination enterprises are fungible. They overlap, run parallel to one another, and cross-fertilize one another.)

Now will different types of people and different personality types tend to see one tool or set of tools as being of more widespread benefit than another tool or set of tools? Possibly so. I'd say probably so. At different times in my life, or at different times now (depending on the type of problem I'm addressing) I reckon I'm that way too. I suspect that's also probably a natural reaction.

But it might not be so, most certainly won't be so, in every circumstance or on every occasion. Plus I think part of the problem rests in the fact that different tools tend to lull us into, or sub-consciously condition us into, certain "mind-frames of operation and interpretation." Meaning that sometimes when one thing could easily inspire us in some beneficial field of activity seemingly totally unrelated to the original activity, we miss the cues and clues of the inherent possibilities because we are conditioned to think only within the operational parameters of the particular tool we are at the moment employing.

Which just reminds me about the old saw about bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Yeah, you might just very well be the very best hand to hand knife fighter in the world. But in a gun-fight will you ever get the chance to really prove that?

Well, I've rambled on long enough. Was gonna get ready for church, but I got a real bad headache. Probably from recent lack of sleep. I'm just gonna go lay down instead.

Nice yakking with you guys. Later.
 

To Jack7

Jack, there is just too much to reply to in your dense posts--and maybe this isn't the place for it--but very interesting, indeed. I'll try to tease out a few things...

So personally I'm more for that way, for the intentional training of somatic, mental, psychological, and spiritual capabilities. Rather than seeking out chemical or other means of enhancement.

Leaving aside intentionality for a moment, we can look at how what we do and take in impacts consciousness. Not everyone engages meditative practice of one sort or another, or at least consciously (and to the extent that you've described), but we all "feed our soul", so to speak; we all "eat the world." From this perspective, everything is food, and food creates our "body."

A more pragmatic and achievable approach, I think, is to be aware of that and note the effects of the "food" we take in. We don't all need to take up intricate and often archaic meditative practices, but we all do "eat" (physically, energetically, emotionally, mentally, psychically, spiritually, etc) and at the least we should do so consciously. Think of Pratyahara in Patanjali's sutras: the withdrawal of the senses through abstinence of various kinds of external "stuff" which feed different aspects of our psycho-physical being. What we feed grows. We don't need to take a purely yogic/transcendent approach where we disavow the worldly, but Pratyahara itself can be taken to mean a kind of consciousness and, yes, intentionality brought to one's experience. Choosing what one takes in in a conscious manner; or, at the least, noting the effects of it.

I have my own theory about that. I call it God Technology. If there is some kind of split, as you propose, I don't suppose it will be all that great a split in motive, as much as in manner. To me all technology is leading eventually towards God Technology. That includes electronic, spintronic, quantum, mechanical, computing and AI, etc, as well as genetic, bimolecular, and biological. They are different technological forms, to be sure, different types of vehicles you might say. But in the end they are all methods of transportation. So destinations will be very similar. Unconsciously, or sub-consciously, they may seem misaligned, even antagonistic in operation, but in actual fact I suspect they will be parallel efforts of progress and development.

Perhaps, but certainly you need a plane to fly? A boat to float? Etc. Right tool for the right job; using the wrong tool for a given job complicates things at best; at worst it destroys what is being worked on.

I'm all for different "modes of travel," but think we need to be clear in how we use our technologies. The mode of travel impacts the experience of the traveler. One's experience of a given place is vastly different if one is, say, a passenger on a train vs. driving a race car.

The Counter-Perceptual Mind: SNIP

Interesting stuff. Actually, this in some ways explicates my point about the mode of travel impacting the experience of the territory. If I drink a pot of coffee and get all agitated and then yell at my daughter when she does something I don't like, there is an obvious connection between the coffee and the anger, right? If I drink some chamomile tea the same action by my daughter might not effect in my in the same way (or rather, I might not react in the same way).

This is not to place the blame elsewhere or to deny responsibility, but in fact the opposite: by noting now different things effect us, we begin to free ourselves from our habitual, mindless patterns--and take true responsibility. It is recognizing one's place within a vast network of influences, in which everything means something, impacts something (or someone) else. It is Buddhism 101, really: all phenomena are co-arising, are interdependent (okay, that's more like Buddhism 202, but I'm sure you get my point).

I am by no means a puritan or a "yogic ascender". I regularly engage in grounding, agitating, stimulation, simulating activities. It is not my view or approach that we disavow everything that is, or could be, harmful in any way. I am, however, interesting in understanding cause-and-effect, inter-relationships, how MMOs effect my consciousness vs. RPGs.
 

To Hussar

I'd much rather seen a remake done well than watch the same story get rehashed for the umpteenth time simply because the author feels the need to do something "different".

I agree, at least in terms of the general sentiment that "quality" trumps "originality," if the latter is no more than surface-level novelty. In a similar way that I prefer well-made "vanilla fantasy" to overly anachronistic "weird fantasy," especially when it veers too far away from what I was calling archetypal resonance. I have both Tekumel and the Forgotten Realms on my game shelf, but when it comes down to it I'd rather game in the Realms than Tekumel.

Ballocks. I'm sorry, but that's utter ballocks. There is no inherently superior form of creativity just because you feel the need to not use existing materials. Just because someone tries to do something from scratch in no way guarantees that it will be creative at all. Again, a bazillion Tolkienesque fantasy books, all creating their own world, all trying to do their own spin, all pretty much the same.

You're kind of extrapolating here, Hussar. I do not think that doing something from scratch guarantees that it will be creative, and certainly one can do a collage of Hollywood icons better than one can paint an imaginary world on blank canvas. We have two separate things here: The artist and the medium. I am not saying that the medium determines how good the artist is, but that different mediums carry different qualities, and are more or less conducive to different kinds of experiences.

Why? Why is there more creativity involved in a tabletop RPG? I've played with DM's, heck, I've been a DM, using a prefab module. And I'm sure most of the people reading this have been as well. How is that any more creative than playing an MMO, or creating content for something like Half-Life or whatnot?

I've given plenty of examples. Playing D&D--as a general rule--is much more creative than playing MMOs because one is, quite literally, creating while playing D&D. Creating what? Images. Imaginations. Inner worlds. With MMOs one is experiencing a virtual world, a simulation. To put it another way, with a tabletop RPG the GM and players are creating the Forgotten Realms, or Tekumel or Talislanta or Middle-earth or whatever-your-world's-name-is. When someone is playing World of Warcraft they are not creating Azeroth--they are engaging a computer simulation of it.

Video games are active. Reading a book is passive. Writing a book may be active, but, for the vast majority of people out there, they will never write that book. Yet lots of people, at the very least, decorate their house in Second Life, interact with various other players in character, create stories and whatnot about their characters.

Yup, you might imagine the pictures when you read a book. But, again, it's entirely passive. You consume the book, your eyes scanning from side to side, never once actually contributing in the slightest to the text.

In a video game, you are contributing to the storyline of the game from the second you start.

Jack7's reply was interesting with regards to this. Reading a book is not passive in that you are actively creating imagery; as he said, the experience of a book is a co-creation of the writer and reader, just as an RPG session is co-created by the GM and players. The cool thing is that while it is a shared experienced and world, each person's (inner) experience is completely different. This is counter to MMOs, where everyone is in the same virtual world.

Just to be clear, I'm not equating books and TTRPGs, or movies and video games. I am making a correlation, ala Gygax: that video games, in relation to RPGs, are what TV and movies are to books. I stand by that as a very accurate analogy; do you not see this as valid?

How is this not just a rehash of "TV is killing our children's brains"? For decades, we heard how life would just get better if kids would turn off the TV and start reading. It's too simplistic. It's not the answer. "Video games are making people dumb" has been studied time and time again and proven false time and time again.

Really? I agree, it is too simplistic--but so is your last sentence here. What do we mean by "making people dumb"? What kind of intelligence? And where are these studies? Who was conducting them? What are their pre-suppositions on what intelligence is, on what human consciousness is?

There's a very good reason why the video game industry is low larger than the movie industry. It actively engages the user. Unlike movies or novels, the user can actively participate in the story, shape the story by his or her own actions.

Yes, agreed. I think the yearning for adventure, heroism, and imagination is pretty much universal. But I don't think that video games will, ultimately, satisfy that yearning. The don't go deep enough. Video games are like junk food; they are tasty, satisfy the initial craving, but are largely lacking in nutrition, leaving the individual wanting more.
 

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