Forked Thread: Are Targets defined by intent or the effect?

[firesnakearies]

It really depends on how you choose to interpret divine challenge. It is not impossible to reflavour it to accommodate paladin archetypes who have a more trickster bent (such as halflings or elves) or would not normally want to stand toe to toe with their foes. Heck, you could reword it as some sort of taunt and it would interact seamlessly with invisibility.

Indeed. Not all paladins are shining knights of virtue anymore. This seems completely in character for a paladin of Lolth, or Vecna, or Zehir. Heck, even a paladin of Sehanine or the Raven Queen could arguably be very trickster-oriented.

 

[Hypersmurf]

2/3. You have made an attack that includes the paladin as a target. The fact that the attack missed is no more relevant than it would be if you shot at the paladin with an arrow and the arrow bounced off of some cover between you and the paladin. In both cases, something between you and the paladin prevented a hit.

I'd say that in this case, something between me and the intended point of origin of the spell prevented the paladin from ever being a target.

There was no burst, therefore there were no creatures in the burst, therefore the power had no targets... because the targets of the power are "Each creature in burst".

If I had line of effect to the point of origin, but the wall was between the point of origin and the paladin, I don't think there'd be any argument that the paladin is not a target of the spell, right? The diagram on p281 shows that the figure behind the wall is not in the area of the burst... the burst covers the blue squares, and the square he's in is not blue.

When there's no line of effect from me to the intended point of origin of the Fireball, no squares will be blue. No creatures will be targets of the power.

-Hyp.

 

[firesnakearies]

I agree.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

When I read a power description the Target entry comes before any Hit, Effect entry, so the first thing that comes to my mind is, targets are chosen/selected before the power goes off - but in your example the Target entry is "Target: Each creature in burst", so there must be that Burst, before the targets can be determined. That's how I would read this targeting mechanic.

X: empty square
P: PAL
W: Wall of Force
O: Point of Origin
C: Caster

CXXOWP

The burst goes off in O, fails to permeate the W, and therefore P is not a Target of the power. Therefore DC goes off dealing damage but wait does DC need line off effect?

To answer your question Hyp, the caster of the fireball intended to include the P in the fireball but in the end P wasn't a target of the fireball, so I'd say it was an attack that didn't include the P.


Damn, shame on me...your example assumes P=O.

CXXXWP P=O

Now when I look at PHB P273 Line of Effect, "You need LoE to any target you wish to attack and to any space in which you wish to create an effect."

So you can't create the O there because you don't have LoE, but you don't know that you don't have LoE (Because nowhere is stated in the rules that you automatically know whether you have LoE or not.).
I have perfectly no idea what the RAW says on this problem.
I'd probably (house-) rule: you fail to cast your spell, but keep it, action wasted. => therefore no attack that didn't include P, no DC.
Other variant: You try to cast but fail (lack of LoE), daily used, no effect (only intent), no attack made, no attack made that did not include P, no DC.

 

[toxicspirit]

Other variant: You try to cast but fail (lack of LoE), daily used, no effect (only intent), no attack made, no attack made that did not include P, no DC.

That would be my rule on how this situation pans out.

 

[Maxim Machinery]

I'd probably (house-) rule: you fail to cast your spell, but keep it, action wasted. => therefore no attack that didn't include P, no DC.
Other variant: You try to cast but fail (lack of LoE), daily used, no effect (only intent), no attack made, no attack made that did not include P, no DC.

I would rule one of these as well.

However, if you tried to catch the paladin and his friend, had line of effect to the Point of Origin, but a wall of force blocked the Pally from being targetted by the attack, I'd say DC would proc, and the Pally would be rewarded for tricking his oppenent into it.