[Forked Thread: How Important is Magic..?] 5 things you need to know

[Doug McCrae]

Hussar makes a very interesting point, that the sources for 1970s D&D were largely contemporary speculative fiction rather than classic. If D&D wants to stay true to its roots then it should always draw primarily from today's fantasy which right now would be World of Warcraft, Harry Potter, Neil Gaiman, anime and movies.

4e hasn't really done that though. If anything it's more old school than OD&D in its fluff. With the growing importance of the Far Realm, Lovecraft is more of an influence now than he was in 1974. The war in heaven between giants and gods is about as old school as it gets, the concept of the feywild likewise.

4e doesn't seek to emulate videogames or anime or anything else that old people hate. D&D has never sought to emulate anything and the current edition is no exception. Sure it's fantasy. Sure it draws on fiction for its fluff and other games for its mechanics, as it has always done. The core D&D mechanic of AC and hit points comes from a naval wargame but that doesn't mean Dave Arneson was trying to emulate battling ironclads. It was a matter of stealing what works, what makes for a better game.

Likewise the terms for the roles - defender, controller, leader, striker - come from City of Heroes. That does not mean 4e is trying to emulate an MMORPG any more than OD&D was emulating a wargame.

 

[Ariosto]

Healing surges? At-will and Encounter Powers? The very lingo of "Feywild", "Dragonborn", "Hurricane of Blood", and so on?

Taken as a whole (To which there is what alternative, especially for a newcomer?), the effect is far more Ultimate X-Men or Dragonball Z than what has for so long been identified as Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[Ariosto]

For being "hip and happening and very now", it's hard to beat Miami Vice ... except that it was way back when. D&D was NOT all that, and I strongly suspect that has had something to do with its longevity.

4E? Check back in 35 years.

 

[RefinedBean]

Healing surges? At-will and Encounter Powers? The very lingo of "Feywild", "Dragonborn", "Hurricane of Blood", and so on?

Taken as a whole (To which there is what alternative, especially for a newcomer?), the effect is far more Ultimate X-Men or Dragonball Z than what has for so long been identified as Dungeons & Dragons.

And yet it still feels like D&D to me! Guess I'm just lucky.

And yeah, gosh, "Feywild" REALLY removes the feel of D&D.

BAB, AC, THACO, HP, the concept of LEVELS, item "slots," standard action/move action/swift action/free action, domain names, spell names, Full Attack, Skill Ranks, Non-Weapon Proficiencies...

D&D has always been chock-full of terms that incessantly remind you that it's a GAME. 4E has introduced nothing new in this regard, just changed the terminology a bit to be more intuitive to new players (or is trying to, at any rate).

 

[Ariosto]

How is it more intuitive to new players?

Dragons and dwarfs, goblins and elves, magic swords and cloaks of invisibility -- these are part of a common Western cultural heritage, and often have analogues in other traditions.

The novelties are distinctly peculiar to the "intellectual property" of Wizards of the Coast. They are a tiny subset of the ghetto of GEEK culture.

 

[RefinedBean]

How is it more intuitive to new players?

I figured the whole At-Will, Encounter, and Daily Power thing just seems to be more intuitive out-of-box than the concept of spell slots, iterative attacks, etc.

I could be wrong. What we need is some 13-year old kids, a case of JOLT Cola, and a lab to do some studies, I suppose.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hussar makes a very interesting point, that the sources for 1970s D&D were largely contemporary speculative fiction rather than classic.

Need we break out the list and check?

From having recently looked at the list, I would hazard that at lease 1/3rd of the listed works in the 1e DMG are now public domain, because they were not contemporary fiction at the time that the 1e DMG was published.

REH? ERB? William Morris? Lord Dunsany? Lovecraft? What new works were they publishing in 1979?

It is rather true that D&D was an amalgamation of what was then modern, and what was then recent, with an emphasis on making the material change to meet the needs of the game world, rather than the other way around.

(Whether 4e does the same thing is, of course, something that can be argued either way. I imagine that if it weren't for WotC's attempt to distance 4e's IP from the SRD IP, it would be much harder to argue the "con" position. )


RC

 

[Ariosto]

When it comes to enduring cultural influences, I'll bet on the Greeks over the geeks. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm more impressed by a resumé and track record of millennia than by one of barely a year.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I don't think 4e naming conventions have anything to do with MMORPGs or vidya games or aneemay or anything like that. I think some of the names suffer greviously from wahoo-ism, but that has nothing to do with outside sources. It's a problem with trying to ramp everything to 11. You don't keep the knob at 11, you just turn it there when you really need to. Otherwise things just get silly.

...And besides that, what the hell is so horrifying about anime anyways? Why does everyone immidiately think of the worst anime they can think of when they make the comparisons. I'd bet there are people who got into D&D because of it. Hell, if someone told me the next edition of D&D was anime-esque, and then compared it to Bastard, I'd line up days in advance to buy it. Record of Lodoss War was awesome to the max. I've explained SR4 wireless Matrix by comparing it to Dennou Coil. I get that the guy wearing the Naruto headband that constantly whines about katanas needing to be better is annoying, but they're no more irritating then the drizzt clone or the munchkin - and those are phenomenon you can't blame on anyone else.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I could be wrong. What we need is some 13-year old kids, a case of JOLT Cola, and a lab to do some studies, I suppose.

I'm 19 but give me enough sugar, caffeine and lack of sleep and I'll put any kid to shame, if I get paid I'll be glad to do testing

I would say that 4e is combining more cultural references then previous editions, right off the bat. Stuff like Feywild, Deva, Djinn, Primordials vs. Gods, etc. all have close ties to real cultures.

I've explained SR4 wireless Matrix by comparing it to Dennou Coil.

I just started watching it, it is quite excellent!

I agree anime has enough reason to be included as anything else. It is a medium afterall not one specific thing.