Forked Thread: Preview: The Shaman, the first broken class.

[Mort]

Just as an aside, I don't think that it is a big deal to have unkillable epic characters. The Dark Wanderer epic destiny, for example, literally makes a PC totally unkillable. No matter how they die, they show up 12 hours later with all their possessions in a location of the player's choosing.

Many Epic Destinies make death unlikely or a speedbump. Heck Undying Warrior makes dying highly unlikely at 21st level (1 healing surge brings you up to bloodied value) and it is just about impossible by 30th.

The whole point of Epic Destinies seem to be that you have bigger things to worry about than your own death.

As to the OP, I think I certainly need to see it in play before announcing broken.

 

[Engilbrand]

Nearly everything is broken if you remove it from the confines of game that includes multiple people. If my group had a Shaman who said, "Hey guys. Don't worry about this. I'm going to hide over there and just let my spirit companion tear those goblins to pieces" my response, both in character and out, would be, "Have fun with that. Just make sure that it doesn't hit me, too."
Always keep in mind that this is a game. Stuff like that isn't fun, so you don't do it. If you try it, see how long you're playing.

 

[Cadfan]

1. This isn't any different from any other character that can hide and attack through something summoned.

2. I don't consider this a game problem. I consider it a player problem. If you want your players to play Magical McGuyver, where they solve problems by finding rules exploits, then that's what they'll do. If you don't, they mostly won't. I've played in games where this sort of tactic would have been par for the course, and wouldn't have been broken at all because, while the Shaman was doing this, the Fighter was carting in ten barrels of alchemist's fire and a hundred feet of fuse wire. I've also played in games where both strategies would have gotten a player looked at like he was a moron, and then ignored. If you pick your style, your game should be fine.

 

[Sir Brennen]

As Jack99 pointed out, there is a limit to the range a shaman's spirit companion can move away from him. Also, the spirit cannot attack on its own. It can only do so using the shaman's powers (and actions). So the OP's initial scenario demonstrating the brokenness of the class cannot happen.

The spirit is a Conjuration, and follows those rules from the PHB (page 59) except where noted in the Call Spirit Companion power.

 

[Thasmodious]

Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are incorrect.

Sure. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

If and when that broken class comes down the pike, there will have been someone who "correctly" called it broken, despite the two dozen other someones incorrectly calling everything else broken. But that assessment won't be based on detailed analysis. It can't. It will be based on a knee jerk response to an out of context preview that's been available for 5 minutes. They will be right along the Blind Squirrel Principle.

I didn't tell anyone to shut up and I think discussion is good. I think definitive "this is broken" statements like this are rather premature, don't lend themselves well to reasoned discussion, and are based on instant reactions and not careful analysis.

 

[Runestar]

Sure. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

If and when that broken class comes down the pike, there will have been someone who "correctly" called it broken, despite the two dozen other someones incorrectly calling everything else broken. But that assessment won't be based on detailed analysis. It can't. It will be based on a knee jerk response to an out of context preview that's been available for 5 minutes. They will be right along the Blind Squirrel Principle.

I didn't tell anyone to shut up and I think discussion is good. I think definitive "this is broken" statements like this are rather premature, don't lend themselves well to reasoned discussion, and are based on instant reactions and not careful analysis.

You do have a very good point there. Your analysis is very compelling, and I think it may well have hit the nail on the head. I admit my reaction too may have been a tad hasty based on my experiences from lurking at the 3e CO boards at gleemax for the past few years, where the regulars/veterans there have apparently mastered the mechanics of the game to the extent that they are able to identify (or even predict?) broken material at a glance. In fact, it is often said that many of the problems plaguing 3e today may well not have existed had those CO regulars been allowed to preview dnd splatbooks before they were sent for printing.

I was refering more to the point about the designers supposedly knowing more about the game than players. By rights, they should, but by left...

 

[Mournblade94]

I was refering more to the point about the designers supposedly knowing more about the game than players. By rights, they should, but by left...

First of all this is a hobby.

Second many of the people participating in the hobby, while not being EMPLOYED in the hobby are just as qualified to evaluate design issues as designers themselves.

All the employed game sesigners are talented and among the best. It in no way means they ARE the best, or infallable.

This is a hobby where the line between professional and amateur is merely who is employed by a game company and who is not.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is a hobby where the line between professional and amateur is merely who is employed by a game company and who is not.

Well, that's one way to differentiate professionality. But one thing published designers have over "armchair" designers at home is that they have to go through all the stages of the design. They have to work on a timeline, within a budget, and achieve certain goals. Typically they also have to work with other designers to create a cohesive whole. And their designs is finally send out to lots of people and used by them (and they get feedback for what they did.)

Now, all that doesn't make employed designers infallible, or designers working at home incapable. But the distinction is bigger then it appears. Just because I wrote some house rules (that barely see use) I can't claim to compete with any of the big designers. I haven't gone through the full design & development cycle, I had no schedules to keep, and I don't have a big responsibility.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

However can you see a reason how the situation above (shaman outside the village) could not do it without a lot of DM handwaving? How about a room full of minions which are now no longer a challlenge?

Okay... looking at this situation if I am the goblin chieftan I am going to gather my elites and slay the spirit. I'm then going to find the person who summoned it and make sure that they can't summon it again.

I'm most certainly NOT going to sit around letting the thing kill all of my minions and lower end troops.

A big threat like a spirit that is immune to the damage of the lower end troops (minions) is going to bring the whole goblin warband down on the party... most likely before they are ready to deal with that many goblins. If the party is so uber that the CAN deal with that many goblins, why would they bother sending in the spirit? If I'm playing a fighter there is no way that I'm going to sit by in a tavern and let this thing have all the fun.

I agree that the Flaming Sphere has proved that the Shaman isn't broken. It is great for cutting a swath through minions AND it can't be killed. However, it never eliminated the threat of any encounter in KotSF.

 

[Mournblade94]

Well, that's one way to differentiate professionality. But one thing published designers have over "armchair" designers at home is that they have to go through all the stages of the design. They have to work on a timeline, within a budget, and achieve certain goals. Typically they also have to work with other designers to create a cohesive whole. And their designs is finally send out to lots of people and used by them (and they get feedback for what they did.)

Now, all that doesn't make employed designers infallible, or designers working at home incapable. But the distinction is bigger then it appears. Just because I wrote some house rules (that barely see use) I can't claim to compete with any of the big designers. I haven't gone through the full design & development cycle, I had no schedules to keep, and I don't have a big responsibility.

Yes. My point was poorly stated.

If you however were put in the position you stated above today, right now, and started generating product(and this is not meant to lessen the role of professional designers in any way) you would most likely output good product, (working on the assumption you have the ability).

There are also MANY people that THINK they are good designers, that are definitely NOT. Some of them even get published, but never stick around.

I do not mean ANYONE can design. I mean there are plenty of people as capable as designers, just perusing these websites.