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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 4714736" data-attributes="member: 158">I'm just the opposite. 3E grapple was simple enough on the surface. Then, you start layering on the small conditional rules. THEN, you start taking other feats into account.How many times can you grapple? One per attack, instead of one per round like it would seem to me intuitively. You can make several attacks, but several grapples? it doesn't flow to me.You get an op-attack when you do the touch attack... except if you have improved grapple. Or if you have that feat from Complete Warrior which gives YOU a free attack if someone is grappling you.You can pin someone in one round if you're good enough -- and make them effectively helpless, cutting off all speech, spells, weapon use, etc. There's no getting out with a natural 20, either -- because grapple's not an attack roll or a save.Ties go to whom? Ties go to the person with the higher grapple check, rather than going to the defender, as saves and similar mechanics work.We have one 3.5 game with a master grappler in it. This is the guy who has spent most all his feats and prestige class levels on becoming the best grappler in the world (Dirty fighting, Reaping Mauler, etc.) Great in and of itself -- except that he creates so many corner cases and conditions, HE's the only one who understands them all. The DM in fact ordered him to be familiar with the rules inside and out for grappling as a condition of letting him take all of those feats and classes. He's so exceptional that when he grapples some NPC or monster who isn't themsleves optimized for grappling that the DM tells him, "you win." <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I saw one instance of Large Enhanced Gargoyle swooping out of the night to grab him in its sleep. He woke up upon hearing the creature (Listen check at -10), used his op attack that he gets from the feat from Complete Warrior, and grappled the creature and pinned it, while on the ground! Made for a fun story, but the fact remains he's the ONLY one who understands how 3E grapple REALLY works in the group, with all the WotC feats and prestige classes added.I'll be the first to admit there needs to be a little TLC with grabbing in 4E, but the rules arewritten in one paragraph in 4E, versus two and a half columns in 3.5. That's what makes it simpler. It's based on the same mechanic as every other attack is, and that really helps the situation.</blockquote>

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