Forked Thread: Pyramid of Shadows joys - 4e Grappling

[vagabundo]

To save Plane Sailing from derailing a thread:

Interesting to hear you say that, as I'm finding the 4e grappling rules worse in every way! 3e took one read through and then it was easy, and there were a lot of things you could do. So far we've had to crack open the books and hunt for the right page every time grappling has come up, then working out whether they are immobilised or just grabbed, whether they grant combat advantage or not, what you have to do if you want to move the grabbed person.

My group have been astonished at how grapple now seems to us to be less functional and more complicated than it was before

At least it's working for some people...!

Forked from: Pyramid of Shadows joys (spoilers)

No, seriously. It was all there on one page, and seemed straightforward. I've never understood what the problem (lampooned so often) was with grappling.

Sure, the mechanics of grappling colossal or gargantuan creatures was stacked against the PCs - but we always saw that as verisimilitude rather than a problem.

4e lacking pin (and with grab being so easy to escape from) makes it hardly ever seem worth trying, and the fact that we have to look it up each time (because it is strength vs reflex, sustain minor, but strength vs fortitude to do this and they make acrobatics vs one skill or athletics vs a different skill - it just seems more fiddly to us, that's all.

It is one of the things we laugh about - that they claimed that 3e grappling was too hard and so they made it simpler and we continually stumble over something now which never used to give us trouble at all

Cheers

I'm interested in how 4e grappling is treating everyone? I hated 3e grappling and never used it.

I havent really used 4e's grappling yet - I think some zombies in KotS grabbed people and I made them flammable too, as I knew my Wizard player would scorching burst them, hehe.

Comments????

 

[Cadfan]

It works fine for me when monsters do it. Its incredibly easy to remember how it works, particularly in comparison with previous versions.

The players really don't use it, because they've almost always got better things to do.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The players really don't use it, because they've almost always got better things to do.

Bingo. I find the 4E grapple rules fairly simple in complexity but utterly useless in utility. There is little point in wasting actions on something like grapple. The solution to grappling was brilliant. Make it so useless that no one wants to bother. Problem solved.

 

[Jack99]

It works well enough in order to keep casters within range. I think the balance between usefulness and ease of use is just fine. There is basis within the system to create a specialized grappler.

 

[vagabundo]

Bingo. I find the 4E grapple rules fairly simple in complexity but utterly useless in utility. There is little point in wasting actions on something like grapple. The solution to grappling was brilliant. Make it so useless that no one wants to bother. Problem solved.

There could be story reasons why you'd want to grapple someone, action scenes don't alway involve stab-u-in-the-face.

But without some specialisation I suppose there is no reason to grab someone, in a standard combat scenario.

We need: Wrester[Multiclass Feat]. Something I've been considering for a while.

EDIT: Oh and a linked paragon path of course. Maybe build a nice Tempest fighter with the right custom feats. Conditioned Fists: Unarmed attacks get a D8 damage instead of the d4.

 

[frankthedm]

3E grappling rules were fine for CoCd20. Big things grabbed you and you were screwed.

The main reason I could see someone needing to look up 4E grappling is to explain: "Yes, you grappled the enemy Caster. No, you don't stop him from doing his thing"

 

[Sadrik]

We did grab in our last session with some alligators. We commented that they made the new grappling rules so easy they don't even exist! (They are now the grab rules).

The do seem fiddly, we had to check to see which defense each maneuver went against (REF and FORT are the choices as I recall). Also we did not realize, the escape rules were in a different part of the book (a few pages before) and so we were using STR vs. FORT to get out of a grab until we realized escape rules existed. The rules seemed to work fine overall. Our biggest problem is with the immobilized condition.

You can’t move from your space, although you can teleport and can be forced to move by a pull, a push, or a slide.

You can apparently do anything but move, except you can move with every other type of way imaginable (which is desirable because it automatically drops the grab). Let me rephrase this being immobilized is fine if you want to just stand there. You can do high kicks, flipping shield smashes, you just cannot leave your square.

King's Castle 1st level rogue power is wacky in this situation.

Funnily, my wizard in the maw of one of the alligators used his 3rd level encounter power that makes him explode for 1d8 damage, missed the alligators REF and hit everyone else (including party members).

 

[Asmor]

I'm one of those who could never really get a solid grasp on the 3e grappling rules, but I do agree with Plane Sailing that the rules weren't actually as complicated as they were made out to be. I think it's mostly a psychological block, in my case, since I'd psyched myself out about them.

I'm loving 4e grappling. My only concern is that it seems too difficult for PCs to use it to great effect, since it usually means forgoing an attack (while most grappling monsters get a normal attack which grabs the creature), it's fairly unreliable, and it's not that hard to break the grab.

From what I understand, there's a grabbing feat in PHB2 which gives a nice bonus to grab attempts, which should help a lot. I'd still like to see some way for PCs to deal damage and grab in the same round.

 

[Cadfan]

Self pimping- see the Brutal Fencer link in my signature for a fighter build that uses the grab rules and the versatile weapon rules to create a combat style.

 

[Festivus]

I have used grapple as a DM in 4E a few times and find it easier to use than 3.5, but I never found 3.5 that difficult.

As a player, I have used grapple once or twice. Imagine the BBEG is heading towards the unarmored spell caster, making a run and grab attempt to hold him from approaching is a perfectly valid move in combat that would be way more effective than an attack where I might not bring him down with one blow.

So perhaps folks are just not aware of the tactical advantages of grabbing someone.