Forked Thread: Pyramid of Shadows joys - 4e Grappling

I don't find 4e grab any more or less complicated than 3e (and I'm in the camp that doesn't find 3e grappling complicated), but I do find it more fiddly and a hell of a lot less useful.
In 3e it actually used to be a viable tactic in combat (especially against enemy spellcasters), in 4e it's pretty much only used when you have to.
ExploderWizard said:
The solution to grappling was brilliant. Make it so useless that no one wants to bother. Problem solved.
Exactly. If the "problem" of grappling was "solved", this is how they did it.
:)
 

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Bingo. I find the 4E grapple rules fairly simple in complexity but utterly useless in utility. There is little point in wasting actions on something like grapple. The solution to grappling was brilliant. Make it so useless that no one wants to bother. Problem solved.:hmm:

Well thats the thing... there is no longer an action called "grapple." Grab isn't grapple. It's litterally just grabbing your opponent. Fairly silly unless you have some other action ready to go.

Instead of ful blown grapple rules, 4e takes a different approach. First you grab the enemy, then you layer on other actions with powers and feats and such. Stuff like:

Garrote Grip Rogue Attack 15
The more your enemy struggles, the less you want to let him go.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action (Special) Melee weapon
Special: You can use this power as a minor action if you have already grabbed a creature. Doing so requires no attack roll. Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you grab the target. Until the target escapes, you have cover, and any melee attack or ranged attack that misses you hits the target instead.
Sustain Minor: Sustain the grab for another round. The third time you sustain the grab after using this power, the target falls unconscious. If an unconscious target takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.

So the idea of grabbing someone gets slightly more usefull, and slightly more complex, but only to the people involved. Which I think is brilliant because it alows the core game to stay easy, but allows new elements to be added on.
 

I'm one of those who could never really get a solid grasp on the 3e grappling rules, but I do agree with Plane Sailing that the rules weren't actually as complicated as they were made out to be. I think it's mostly a psychological block, in my case, since I'd psyched myself out about them.

I never had a massive problem with the 3e grappling rules, although they were dreadfully poorly explained in 3e and only slightly better in 3.5e, but I felt they were broken the moment you had a size difference. I DMed a halfling druid and his grappling dire bear, and that was utterly broken against any medium sized foe: hit, grab, oh, it can't escape!

Things got worse as you got to the higher levels, because monster HD and Base Attack and then their Grapple bonus increased to levels far beyond any PC. Grappling was a TPK if you let it happen.

Yes, Grappling is no longer an "I win" manuever... which is so, so much better than how it was.

Cheers!
 

Things got worse as you got to the higher levels, because monster HD and Base Attack and then their Grapple bonus increased to levels far beyond any PC. Grappling was a TPK if you let it happen.
This was never my experience with 3e grappling. By the time modifiers got high enough to be "auto-win", there were plenty of other tools in the PCs arsenal to defeat it (Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door/Teleport/etc).
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that any high level monster in 3e whose main ability was grappling always seemed vastly underpowered, at least in the games I played in.
 


This was never my experience with 3e grappling. By the time modifiers got high enough to be "auto-win", there were plenty of other tools in the PCs arsenal to defeat it (Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door/Teleport/etc).
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that any high level monster in 3e whose main ability was grappling always seemed vastly underpowered, at least in the games I played in.

I note that the tools in your arsenal are all spells. Yes, 3e really did work off the "either you have the spell prepared, or you're dead" idea a lot of the time. This would seem to me to be a significant flaw: your cleric must prepare freedom of movement or any Purple Worm will have your PCs for lunch.

So, in my games, where clerics were few and far between (and well-played ones even rarer!), grappling was something that was likely to cause death. In your game, where the spells were used, grappling wasn't worth using.

That's not a good middle ground.

Cheers!
 

I note that the tools in your arsenal are all spells. Yes, 3e really did work off the "either you have the spell prepared, or you're dead" idea a lot of the time.
Not necessarily. There were also magic items that did the same sort of thing, plus rogues/monks/etc with a tricked out escape artist could normally beat all but the most tricked out grapplers. I also have vague memories of feats and/or skill tricks from splatbooks that provided mundane means to defeat grappling (though I don't have books to consult so I'll admit I could be mistaken).

Plus, while a monster is grappling, it's denied it's dex bonus to AC, which usually resulted in the rogue sneak attacking it to death.

I agree that a party utterly unprepared for grappling in 3e was in a bit of trouble, but as you point out there are a lot of things in 3e that applies to, so any reasonable party of 3e characters that managed to survive to those levels made sure they were prepared for those eventualities. At least in the games I've played in or run.
:)
 

I didn't find the 3e grapple difficult so much as didn't like it for how it worked (neutralization). 4e's grab is much easier to implement and does what it should do without ruining the combat.
 


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