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<blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 4512207" data-attributes="member: 63763">Except of course that forcing an enemy to attack someone they are least likely to hit AND, if they do, has enough HP [and surges] to shrug it off means that the squishier members of the party that do more damage are kept alive. Keeping them alive keeps them dealing damage and therefore killing the enemy faster.&nbsp;Similarly a dazed, stunned or unconcious enemy is not fighting as effectively as he would be without those conditions. Having lowered defences or lowered chances to hit reduces his effectiveness. Being knocked prone not only allows people a better chance of hitting him [and sneak attack], but he has to waste an action to get up and may not be able to reach anyone to attack them after getting up. &nbsp;There are tons of ways to effect an enemies fighting effectiveness temporarily, until they are dead. Many powers that do less damage are better choices because the secondary effects provide more of an advantage than that bit of extra damage would have.&nbsp;And may I ask, what are the ways in 3e to completely remove an enemies fighting effectiveness? Put them to 0 HP or lower or ... save or die/save or might as well die effects? In 2e? In 1e? Ultimately, IN COMBAT, killing the opponent [or &quot;subduing them&quot;] is always the goal. While dealing damage is obviously part of that, so is withstanding the opponent's attack. If you &quot;win&quot; a fight, but the entire party needs to spend a ton of surges to get back up to full, it is much worse than having the fight go LONGER, but with less damage taken by your side. Killing the opponent as quickly as possible is one method, but making the opponent deal as little damage as possible while you kill him [perhaps more slowly] is an option that makes for the adventuring day being able to last longer, as you conserve your resources better.&nbsp;But yeah, 4e COMBAT is really just about getting the opponent to 0 Hp. No other game is like that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WalterKovacs, post: 4512207, member: 63763"] Except of course that forcing an enemy to attack someone they are least likely to hit AND, if they do, has enough HP [and surges] to shrug it off means that the squishier members of the party that do more damage are kept alive. Keeping them alive keeps them dealing damage and therefore killing the enemy faster. Similarly a dazed, stunned or unconcious enemy is not fighting as effectively as he would be without those conditions. Having lowered defences or lowered chances to hit reduces his effectiveness. Being knocked prone not only allows people a better chance of hitting him [and sneak attack], but he has to waste an action to get up and may not be able to reach anyone to attack them after getting up. There are tons of ways to effect an enemies fighting effectiveness temporarily, until they are dead. Many powers that do less damage are better choices because the secondary effects provide more of an advantage than that bit of extra damage would have. And may I ask, what are the ways in 3e to completely remove an enemies fighting effectiveness? Put them to 0 HP or lower or ... save or die/save or might as well die effects? In 2e? In 1e? Ultimately, IN COMBAT, killing the opponent [or "subduing them"] is always the goal. While dealing damage is obviously part of that, so is withstanding the opponent's attack. If you "win" a fight, but the entire party needs to spend a ton of surges to get back up to full, it is much worse than having the fight go LONGER, but with less damage taken by your side. Killing the opponent as quickly as possible is one method, but making the opponent deal as little damage as possible while you kill him [perhaps more slowly] is an option that makes for the adventuring day being able to last longer, as you conserve your resources better. But yeah, 4e COMBAT is really just about getting the opponent to 0 Hp. No other game is like that. [/QUOTE]

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