D&D 4E Forked Thread: Some Thoughts on 4e

[Vayden]

Forked from: Some Thoughts on 4e

The bottom line is that magic is now mostly about damaging foes and healing. There is very little in combat utility magic. There is very little in combat defensive magic.

And, most of the in combat magic lasts a round or so.

And, most magic is barely distinguishable from Martial powers.

Magic is no longer special and most of the fun magic is gone or nerfed to the point of limited utility.

There is very little long duration magic anymore either.

Most of the game is really about combat now.

Sure, one can find an exception here or there. But, PCs can no longer Fly over a mountain, PCs can no longer sneak through a town Invisible, magic is no longer special, unique, and with a reasonable duration. It's mundane and pedestrian.

Practically every foe now has one or more powers that are more or less indistinguisable from magic.

Magic used to be the factor that made PCs special and it itself was special. It's not anymore.

I've heard this around a lot; I'm not trying to denigrate those who propagate this view, as I certainly understand missing the bag of tricks that magic used to provide. The one quibble I would put forth, after playing my wizard character up to 10th, and running and playing in a couple other games, is that 4th actually makes magic feel more special from what I've seen. Before, any random group of adventurers around 4-5th level could quaff potions of invisibility and sneak through the town - it got to the point where you'd see people explicitly laying out the "anti-invisibility" theft measures that common stores would use. Now, my 10th level wizard can use invisibility once a day, on the days she prepared it, it only works for one person, and it takes a standard action to sustain. She has to think and plan for when the right time to prepare and use invisibility is, and then it takes some work to actually pull it off and use the thing. It feels a lot more "special" and less "mundane" to me when magic is hard to use, rare, and takes a little extra effort in addition to the magic to get what you want out of it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[Walknot]

Forked from: Some Thoughts on 4e
She has to think and plan for when the right time to prepare and use invisibility is, and then it takes some work to actually pull it off and use the thing. It feels a lot more "special" and less "mundane" to me when magic is hard to use, rare, and takes a little extra effort in addition to the magic to get what you want out of it.

Does feel that way playing the game.

On the other hand, if you want some of that old-time magic thrown in? Used to be, your mage was hands above the most spectacular character to play at high levels. Not the most damaging overall, or the best, but just the most spectacular. Or maybe your cleric.

But if remarkable and compelling magic is an exception in 4e, and lies outside the ruleset, still there is no reason why you can't do it. Add some rituals that do allow the whole party to invis and sneak around, if that's what you want.

Better yet, go all out. Have your mage be "the chosen one" a conduit of the primal magical forces. She doesn't know it yet, but she is sent to fulfill a historic destiny. Use that as a story hook, and allow periodic magical events centered on your mage to move the story along.

Her amazing magical spells etc... can be the impetus for all manner of encounters including combats and skill challenges.

There are lots of possibilities; where rules don't know, let your imagination flow.

 

[LostSoul]

Here's a scene from last night's game:

One PC got in a pitfight with an ogre. The fix was in; the owner of the bar wanted the ogre to win.

There was a deathjump spider chained up in the pit, and once the PC was closest to it, he released it.

The Wizard asked me: "What is the spider's favourite food?"

"Make your nature check and you tell me."

He rolls, makes the Moderate DC. "They feed on rats and other vermin. Maybe the spider-tender gives him a dog or a cat or a lame horse as a treat."

"Cool. What are you going to do with that info?"

"I'm going to use Prestidigitation to create an illusion of rats swarming around the ogre's body so that the spider will go after him."

"Make an Int attack vs. the spider's Will."

He rolls, succeeds, and the spider starts biting the ogre, trying to get its food.​

How's that?

 

[KarinsDad]

The one quibble I would put forth, after playing my wizard character up to 10th, and running and playing in a couple other games, is that 4th actually makes magic feel more special from what I've seen. Before, any random group of adventurers around 4-5th level could quaff potions of invisibility and sneak through the town - it got to the point where you'd see people explicitly laying out the "anti-invisibility" theft measures that common stores would use. Now, my 10th level wizard can use invisibility once a day, on the days she prepared it, it only works for one person, and it takes a standard action to sustain. She has to think and plan for when the right time to prepare and use invisibility is, and then it takes some work to actually pull it off and use the thing. It feels a lot more "special" and less "mundane" to me when magic is hard to use, rare, and takes a little extra effort in addition to the magic to get what you want out of it.

But maybe that's just me.

I think rare does not necessarily equate to special.

The problem is the handcuffs. I can only Dimension Door, or Dispel Magic once per day. Total. There is no way to Dimension Door twice per day, or Dimension Door and Dispel Magic in the same encounter, or Dimension Door and Dispel Magic in the same day (if you follow the customer service interpretation as to what can be prepped per slot which seems to be RAI).

Being limited does not equate to special. Being limited equates to lack of options and boredom.


I was in a situation where I prepped Dispel Magic since the BBEG was a Wizard Vampire. Day after day, we had encounters, but did not yet reach the final climactic fight. That spell was basically worthless day after day because we did not encounter any conjuration zones. When we finally reached the encounter, I tried using it on one of the Vampire's zones, rolled a 10, and whiffed. I don't mind whiffing as much as I mind the fact that my PC was even more handcuffed than usual for a spell that is fairly worthless for the few times it can come into play (BBEGs often tend to have high Will defense). When one has 20 spells and 1 is worthless, it's not as bad as when one has 8 spells and 1 is worthless. They nerfed the number of times Dispel Magic can be used per day, nerfed what type of magic Dispel Magic affects, and then turned around and slightly nerfed the percentage chance of it working when used. Just like your Wizard with Invisibility, I thought and planned and it didn't do anything. Even if I had made the roll, Dispel Magic is so limited that it would have hardly affected combat.

That's not special.


3E basically was:

Fighters: A few At Wills, no Dailies, a few charged items
Wizards: No At Wills (mid-level on), many Dailies, multiple charged items

4E is:

Everyone: 2 (typically) At Wills, a few Encounters, a few Dailies, no charged items

It's homogenous.

When each player re-uses the same 2-4 powers for most combats, it's predictable and repetitive.

When nearly every combat power is a damaging power and special magic like Invisibility is limited to once per day, it's predictable and repetitive.

Combat is all about damage. There are no illusions. There are few enchantments. There are no real summons. It's all the same. Damage, damage, damage. From every PC, even the casters.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'm with you Karinsdad. 4E magic system is boring. The only people that like the new magic system are those that weren't particularly good at the old one or never bothered to play a caster.

Even priests were far more interesting in 3E.

 

[Mercule]

It's homogenous.

I haven't played much 4e, yet (still wrapping 3.5 campaign), but this is one of my fears. In previous editions, each class had ground-up mechanics that flavored it.

But, I'm also mindful that the 1e fighter mechanical flavor was basically that it was devoid of any toys.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I'm with you Karinsdad. 4E magic system is boring. The only people that like the new magic system are those that weren't particularly good at the old one or never bothered to play a caster.

Even priests were far more interesting in 3E.

See, that is generalizing.

I like the new system. I also like the old.

It has nothing to do with skill level, but preferences.

 

[HighTemplar]

Forked from: Some Thoughts on 4e
[...]. Before, any random group of adventurers around 4-5th level could quaff potions of invisibility and sneak through the town - it got to the point where you'd see people explicitly laying out the "anti-invisibility" theft measures that common stores would use. Now, my 10th level wizard can use invisibility once a day, on the days she prepared it, it only works for one person, and it takes a standard action to sustain. She has to think and plan for when the right time to prepare and use invisibility is, and then it takes some work to actually pull it off and use the thing. [...]

Seriously, that's cool, but isin't that lame ?

Since invisibility is rarer it means it's less present and there's MUCH less countermeasure against it.

This now means that almost every ill-willed wizard can now steal ANYTHING(yes the players remember the trick from 3e)...

This sort of behavior get's harder and harder to discourage as the game seems to want to reward your great thinking there. "Good job on that theft buddy, it's the only one we can do today congrats, great plan. Now how do we share those 5 astral diamonds 3 ways?!."

How's that?

If you want an answer: It was pretty baller.
If you want people to compare RP and games: Do you really want that ?

 

[Tony Vargas]

It is true that magic and martial abilities are much more closely balanced in 4e than in earlier editions. It's not just that the effort has been made to balance them, they've been made mechanically similar in availability, scope and power. If you depend solely on mechanics to differentiate character abilities, all characters feel less differentiated in 4e. Such is the price of balance.

Some people are disapointed by the lack of differentiation, to which I say, 'hey, on the bright side, the game's better balanced.' Others complain about the lack of differentiation, but really miss the lack of balance - they will remain unconsolable, I'm afraid. Well, until enough broken combos are spawned by endless sourcebooks, anyway...

 

[Celtavian]

See, that is generalizing.

I like the new system. I also like the old.

It has nothing to do with skill level, but preferences.

It is too general. A more accurate generilzation would be those that think the 4E system is better than the 3E system. They are both useable, but not both as interesting.

You keep casting the same spell over and over again. There are obvious choices that are better than other choices. Most mages take Flaming Sphere and Bigby'S Grasping Hand because a sustainable spell is far better than a one shot daily.