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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 4514156" data-attributes="member: 63763">So, you trick an opponent into falling into a pit ... causing damage and forcing them to get out of the pit. This isn't functionally that different than say, pushing someone into the pit trap [which is possible in 4th edition]. There are also illussion-esque spells that would make it harder for an opponent to notice that there is a pit there.  There are walls in 4e too.  Still in 4th.  And, so, dropping a bunch of rocks on enemies via a combination of spells instead of a single spell is different how? You are still ultimately casting, in this case, a pair of spells that will likely damage the opponents, as well as knock them prone, maybe immobilize them temporarily, and definitely create a zone of difficult terrain. This is exactly what a 4e spell is like except it isn't dependent on the terrain, thus as probably a daily spell could be used each day.  True, but the drows darkness, is basically the same thing without any "trickiness" it's just auto "only the caster can see in this particular darkness cloud". It's smaller, admitedly, but that's because it's a per encounter ability from 1st level, so it shouldn't be ridiculous.  In 4e that becomes "any type of knock prone/stunning/sleep" spell on flying creatures. Heck, even dazing a flying creature means, unless it can hover, it needs to spend it's one action each turn moving to stay in the air.   There are other spells that dominate or stun NPCs which is the equivalent of using command to tell someone to basically stop fighting.  So, a trap that causes damage, probably knocks a foe prone, etc, etc, etc. Most of your descriptions are ways to take a spell and turn it INTO a way to deal damage. Most of the examples aren't something you can specifically do in 4e. Of course, you are basically combining spells or using spells differently ... to end up getting effects that are the same as a trap or attack spell. In 4e, they just cut to the chase and have the spells do what can be useful frequently [because of the limited number available, and thus you don't want to prepare a spell you don't get to use during the day]. Instead of spells that specific uses, and can be used creatively ... to be turned into a "damage dealing spell" that you loathe so much.  And there are zones that can make it hard for people to pass through areas as well. And, with ALL the ramps I've seen so far in the first 2 H adventures ... icy terrain can be used in any situation, one encounter per day will probably work well with Web. You can't even expect to encounter one ramp per day with grease.  So, toss a guy off a bridge. There are spells for that. And, falling = damage.   A) Mordenkaiden's Mansion B) Mass Greater Invisibility isn't overpowered at all ...   They result in dominating, stunning or dazing monsters, as well as forcing them to move in certain ways. That occurs in 4e too. Heck, you can make them flank for your team, attack their teammates. Etc, etc, etc.  They have some summons that do that, and they've STARTED adding summoned creatures now. They needed to deal with the economy of actions, how spend one turn summoning a creature and getting to double the number of things you can do each turn. Mounts can be used, but they share the actions of their rider. There is the bag of tricks and the figurines, and soon the ranger gets his companion back. For the conjured creatures, you spend minor actions to let them do any of their kinds of actions, keeping to their normal allotment. So, they DELAYED summoning, in part because they needed to find out how to balance it in the new system. Also, there is likely a different kind of spellcaster they'd want to make having summoning as "it's thing".  Like finding round about ways of doing damage, knocking enemies prone, immobilizing them, dazing them, stunning them, slowing them, causing them to fall off cliffs, etc. All things possible in 4e, except, instead of a DM having to decide [or having to look up] how much damage the "improvised rock slide from the ceiling caving in", there can be a spell that does exactly that including all the conditions that occur because of it [knocking prone, immobilizing, causing diffcult/hindering/whatever terrain].</blockquote>

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