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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4514258" data-attributes="member: 2011">No, they weren't. Summoning does not do that. Invisibility does not do that. Darkness does not do that. They were not all 3E effects that could be mechanically emulated with 4E effects, they were a wide variety of effects, some of which cannot be done easily or at all in 4E.Creatively use how? It's one thing to say that 4E can be used creatively. It's another to do so.And I mean creative (like Darkness two feet off the ground), not obvious (like push a foe into a flank or into a Wall of Fire).Come up with a list of real creative things that can be done with 4E combat spells.Except that the end result is not the same. How does one &quot;eavesdrop&quot; in 4E? Now compare that to how one does so in 3E?How does the group fly 10 miles in 4E? Flying Carpet is the only solution (TMK). Mass Fly lasts for 5 minutes.The end result is not the same because the toolbelt is so tiny. How does one be a mechanic on a car if the only tools one has is a hammer and a screwdriver? Yes, some things can be fixed or maintained on a car, but not everything. To be a good car mechanic takes many different tools.To be a creative spell caster in an RPG takes many different spells. Not just a boatload of damaging spells with minor little side effects.That's where your position fails. I do not want to do the same thing as existing damaging spells. I want to do different things. But utimately, you aren't going to be convinced.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 4514258, member: 2011"] No, they weren't. Summoning does not do that. Invisibility does not do that. Darkness does not do that. They were not all 3E effects that could be mechanically emulated with 4E effects, they were a wide variety of effects, some of which cannot be done easily or at all in 4E. Creatively use how? It's one thing to say that 4E can be used creatively. It's another to do so. And I mean creative (like Darkness two feet off the ground), not obvious (like push a foe into a flank or into a Wall of Fire). Come up with a list of real creative things that can be done with 4E combat spells. Except that the end result is not the same. How does one "eavesdrop" in 4E? Now compare that to how one does so in 3E? How does the group fly 10 miles in 4E? Flying Carpet is the only solution (TMK). Mass Fly lasts for 5 minutes. The end result is not the same because the toolbelt is so tiny. How does one be a mechanic on a car if the only tools one has is a hammer and a screwdriver? Yes, some things can be fixed or maintained on a car, but not everything. To be a good car mechanic takes many different tools. To be a creative spell caster in an RPG takes many different spells. Not just a boatload of damaging spells with minor little side effects. That's where your position fails. I do not want to do the same thing as existing damaging spells. I want to do different things. But utimately, you aren't going to be convinced. [/QUOTE]

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