Forked Thread: V-minis and DDi (was Gamespy interview)

[broghammerj]

Ok. Subscribing to the virtual tabletop without 3-D minis is like subscribing to a magazine for $5/month to have it delivered and then having to pay another $5 to have words printed into it. The only reason I was remotely interested in this project is

1. It allows me to game with friends that I have moved away from.
2. It looks pretty cool (BTW, Tolkiens don't look cool and this is not how it was previewed)

For all you talking about the great expense of 3D rendering.....Hello! Have you seen all the mods for Neverwinter Night. Release the engine and let the fans create everything.

Check out the game Freedom Force on Google Image. It has figures about the size of what I would expect for the vitrual tabletop. The super hero game allows you to customize and create your own heroes. Guess what. In a few months you could find a skins for about every single DC/Marvel superhero and villian ever created. Golly gee did the fans do it or did Irrational Games and Electronic Arts make their developers work overtime (for free) to create all of these renderings.

WotC continued shortsightedness on this project amazes me. Following mistakes seem pretty glaring:

1. Preview the product in a format which you can't get at baseline (ie 3d minis cost extra)

2. Destroy any hype and fan anticipation related to the product by making it severly delayed with no forseeable timeline.

3. Miss the major debut with the product it's supposed to support (4E core books).

4. Charge people for upgrades in the product while they are paying a subscription.

5. Bundle the product in a subscription format with some other non-existent, severely delayed, but promised to be whiz bang cool because we told you so (character generator, Dungeon/Dragon).

6. Not allow for ala carte purchasing.

7. Don't provide the engine for fans to do customization. Hello WotC....your costs will drop to about zero.

8. And finally......drumroll......make a product that everyone who is playing online will have to subscribe to in order to play. Your 6 man group of friends spread all over the country who want to play DnD will have to pay 6x15=$90 instead of the DM buying a subscription.

Foot....say hello to pistol because I am shooting you.

 

[Xyxox]

Ok. Subscribing to the virtual tabletop without 3-D minis is like subscribing to a magazine for $5/month to have it delivered and then having to pay another $5 to have words printed into it.

Well put!

WotC continued shortsightedness on this project amazes me. Following mistakes seem pretty glaring:

1. Preview the product in a format which you can't get at baseline (ie 3d minis cost extra)

2. Destroy any hype and fan anticipation related to the product by making it severly delayed with no forseeable timeline.

3. Miss the major debut with the product it's supposed to support (4E core books).

4. Charge people for upgrades in the product while they are paying a subscription.

5. Bundle the product in a subscription format with some other non-existent, severely delayed, but promised to be whiz bang cool because we told you so (character generator, Dungeon/Dragon).

6. Not allow for ala carte purchasing.

7. Don't provide the engine for fans to do customization. Hello WotC....your costs will drop to about zero.

8. And finally......drumroll......make a product that everyone who is playing online will have to subscribe to in order to play. Your 6 man group of friends spread all over the country who want to play DnD will have to pay 6x15=$90 instead of the DM buying a subscription.

Foot....say hello to pistol because I am shooting you.

Does this remind you of the much vaunted character generator software where a free preview was included in the D&D 3E PHB with the new improved version out any day now? That never materialized, either.

DDI is currently just so much vaporware and WotC doesn't want to allow players to do anything with it. It's control freak taken to the extreme and may end up killing the project before it ever gets released to market.

And as a final point your number 8, let's say that I, as the DM, have the cash and lay out money for the v-minis. Do the six players in the virtual group see the v-minis I spent my hard earned cash on, or do they see just tokens? Given the online model, my bet is they see tokens and only I gain the experience of the virtual minis because the 3-D renderings are going to be localized on my computer, and not theirs. So to enjoy the v-minis, all six must purchase the v-minis.

That $90/month just shot up.

 

[broghammerj]

Does this remind you of the much vaunted character generator software where a free preview was included in the D&D 3E PHB with the new improved version out any day now? That never materialized, either.

Don't get me started on this. Having no track record is one thing. Consider it an unknown when a company begins taking products in different directions. Having a bad track record is a whole other story. WotC had better wow me (no world of warcraft pun intended). They need to be on time with schedules, offer me a very very low introductory price, prove they have something I can't live without, and generally have a better than expected product. For me the character generetor leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I still taste.

Some will say that I am expecting way to much and being unreasonable but I sit idlely by watching WotC slowly dig the grave for the DDI.

 

[Xyxox]

Don't get me started on this. Having no track record is one thing. Consider it an unknown when a company begins taking products in different directions. Having a bad track record is a whole other story. WotC had better wow me (no world of warcraft pun intended). They need to be on time with schedules, offer me a very very low introductory price, prove they have something I can't live without, and generally have a better than expected product. For me the character generetor leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I still taste.

Some will say that I am expecting way to much and being unreasonable but I sit idlely by watching WotC slowly dig the grave for the DDI.

I don't think you're expecting anything more than was promised. Sadly, when it comes to computerized tools for D&D, WotC's promises rarely materialize into reality. The one exception I can think of was the Core Rules 2.0 CD-ROM. Sadly, that came out just before the 3E announcement.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Brog, your list left out: "Ensure that nobody in the known universe trusts you over matters that involve the internet, as irregardless of what you do online, it seems to fail miserably. Like make internet forums."

 

[Tervin]

Ok. Subscribing to the virtual tabletop without 3-D minis is like subscribing to a magazine for $5/month to have it delivered and then having to pay another $5 to have words printed into it.

You didn't read that there will be tokens in place for all of the monsters? Or that the virtual minis will only be there for some of the monsters? If you did read those things - how is then virtual minis something that is necessary for using the virtual tabletop?

And as a final point your number 8, let's say that I, as the DM, have the cash and lay out money for the v-minis. Do the six players in the virtual group see the v-minis I spent my hard earned cash on, or do they see just tokens? Given the online model, my bet is they see tokens and only I gain the experience of the virtual minis because the 3-D renderings are going to be localized on my computer, and not theirs. So to enjoy the v-minis, all six must purchase the v-minis.

If you bothered to check the info that is out on the virtual tabletop, instead of just speculating wildly, you would see that they have promised that if just one person in the playing group owns the mini, it can be used at the table and everyone will see it.

I think there are serious problems with how WotC have been handling the DDi as a whole and the virtual tabletop in particular. The virtual minis bit though is a non issue. They are just a bit of unnecessary fluff that you can pay for if you feel like it, but noone will ever need. I am happy to know that if I choose to pay $10 a month for the DDI I will not have part of that used to produce that kind of crap, but that it will instead be used for things I would actually have use for. Stuff that would improve my game and help it run more smoothly, not just a bit of face candy.

The real problem with the DDI is that WotC have not in their history ever shown themselves trustworthy when it comes to software development, and that they so far have done very little to change that image. I want the virtual tabletop, both for use in traditional games and for playing with friends far away. Yes there are alternatives, but this thing has so much more potential.

 

[Xyxox]

If you bothered to check the info that is out on the virtual tabletop, instead of just speculating wildly, you would see that they have promised that if just one person in the playing group owns the mini, it can be used at the table and everyone will see it.

My experience with what WotC promises in regards to computer software and what actually gets deleivered are usually two completely different things.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

NEver heard of the term "sarcasm", eh?

You keep using "betting" as a rhetorical device. It's not sarcasm it is lazy writing.

Please stop with the ethnic slurs, it's only 1/4 of my heritage.

 

[Tervin]

My experience with what WotC promises in regards to computer software and what actually gets deleivered are usually two completely different things.

Ok, I give you that one. But in this case doing it the way you describe would be a lot more complicated than the way they have said they would do it. Their problems so far have never been in that direction. the reason why they don't tend to deliver what they set out to never seems to be out of evil, just out of lack of competence and resources.

 

[Xyxox]

Ok, I give you that one. But in this case doing it the way you describe would be a lot more complicated than the way they have said they would do it. Their problems so far have never been in that direction. the reason why they don't tend to deliver what they set out to never seems to be out of evil, just out of lack of competence and resources.

Actually, from a software perspective, doing it the way I lay out makes far more sense. 3D renderings are too fat to dowload to each machine during game time, so it logically follows that the v-minis will be localized on user machines and simple calls directed across the internet will activate those renderings.

So to do it as promised, game time must stand still while the renderings are downloaded. This is not a good model for a smooth game.