Forked Thread: What is the difference between New Fantasy and Old Fantasy?

For me, the key to understanding this is to appreciate that the categories of "fiction" and "nonfiction", as presently understood, are a comparatively recent development in human history; they depend on a worldview wherein some kind of objective verification (actual or potential) of reported events is a defining criterion. We are now very used to this way of looking at the stories we tell, but it is is not a universal distinction, and has only come to dominate our own way of thinking in recent centuries.

In earlier times, stories tended to grow organically, receiving different treatments from different storytellers, but not self-consciously created in the way a modern person sits down to write a novel or a history book. Stories served to entertain, to instruct, to inform, and to create a shared world. Stories that were about remote times or places (as many of the well-repeated ones were) could freely use imaginative or extraordinary elements. No doubt some listeners were more credulous than others, but without a worldview that demanded that a story be classified as "fiction" or "nonfiction" before it could be interpreted, differences in credulity probably did not have much effect on how the story was received.

Through the centuries, as the world became more circumscribed by increasing literacy, detailed cartography, extensive written records, and developments in science and technology, the difference between stories that were historical accounts and stories that were more fanciful or inventive came into clearer focus. Finally, by the time of the enlightenment, the distinction between fiction and nonfiction became firmly established, so much so that Coleridge would later have to speak of the "willing suspension of disbelief" to explain how someone could appreciate a work of fiction - no such suspension would have been required in Hellenistic times, for example.

So what I am getting at is that "fantasy" as a genre of fiction, in which a writer self-consciously introduces imaginative, fanciful, magical, or mythic elements into a story of his or her own invention, only becomes possible when the fiction/nonfiction distinction has come to define the terms of the art of storytelling.

I think it is anachronistic to say that Homer "knew he was writing fiction" (or some equivalent statement). The category didn't exist then. Odysseus was a Trojan war hero, and versions of his story were no doubt commonly told and retold. Homer used his artistry to tell the story as richly and as engagingly as he could, and his version was preserved in writing so we can read it today.

Today, we mine the elements of old stories and myths to create fantasy, a genre that is self-consciously fictional, a deliberate "what if the world were different?" exercise intended to stimulate the imagination and to entertain. A modern person, raised on Tolkien, can certainly pick up a translation of Beowulf or the Mabinogion and read them as fantasy adventures, but we do so with a very different mindset than those who originally told and heard those stories. Saying that those tales were early examples of the Fantasy genre isn't a very good way of capturing the relationship between the two: the old stories have inspired and been mined for raw material by modern writers with an agenda that would have been quite alien to peoples of the past.
 

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For me, the key to understanding this is to appreciate that the categories of "fiction" and "nonfiction", as presently understood, are a comparatively recent development in human history; they depend on a worldview wherein some kind of objective verification (actual or potential) of reported events is a defining criterion. We are now very used to this way of looking at the stories we tell, but it is is not a universal distinction, and has only come to dominate our own way of thinking in recent centuries.

In earlier times, stories tended to grow organically, receiving different treatments from different storytellers, but not self-consciously created in the way a modern person sits down to write a novel or a history book. Stories served to entertain, to instruct, to inform, and to create a shared world. Stories that were about remote times or places (as many of the well-repeated ones were) could freely use imaginative or extraordinary elements. No doubt some listeners were more credulous than others, but without a worldview that demanded that a story be classified as "fiction" or "nonfiction" before it could be interpreted, differences in credulity probably did not have much effect on how the story was received.

Through the centuries, as the world became more circumscribed by increasing literacy, detailed cartography, extensive written records, and developments in science and technology, the difference between stories that were historical accounts and stories that were more fanciful or inventive came into clearer focus. Finally, by the time of the enlightenment, the distinction between fiction and nonfiction became firmly established, so much so that Coleridge would later have to speak of the "willing suspension of disbelief" to explain how someone could appreciate a work of fiction - no such suspension would have been required in Hellenistic times, for example.

So what I am getting at is that "fantasy" as a genre of fiction, in which a writer self-consciously introduces imaginative, fanciful, magical, or mythic elements into a story of his or her own invention, only becomes possible when the fiction/nonfiction distinction has come to define the terms of the art of storytelling.

I think it is anachronistic to say that Homer "knew he was writing fiction" (or some equivalent statement). The category didn't exist then. Odysseus was a Trojan war hero, and versions of his story were no doubt commonly told and retold. Homer used his artistry to tell the story as richly and as engagingly as he could, and his version was preserved in writing so we can read it today.

Today, we mine the elements of old stories and myths to create fantasy, a genre that is self-consciously fictional, a deliberate "what if the world were different?" exercise intended to stimulate the imagination and to entertain. A modern person, raised on Tolkien, can certainly pick up a translation of Beowulf or the Mabinogion and read them as fantasy adventures, but we do so with a very different mindset than those who originally told and heard those stories. Saying that those tales were early examples of the Fantasy genre isn't a very good way of capturing the relationship between the two: the old stories have inspired and been mined for raw material by modern writers with an agenda that would have been quite alien to peoples of the past.

I hereby unofficially dub you the winner of this thread.
 

Apparently you don't understand the law of logic. You make the claim, I challenge the claim, you provide the evidence. You don't make a claim and then ask the one challenging the claim to provide your evidence. It doesn't make sense.
What is this? Debate club?

If you want to be a stickler about it, I'll point out that in every critical work I've ever seen it's pretty much assumed that the modern fantasy genre started with E. R. Eddision, William Morris and Lord Dunsany, or roundabouts. Since you're the one proposing something different than the null hypothesis conventional and accepted position, it actually is very much your job to do more than simply say, "no, that ain't true because I say so."
Corjay said:
"A bit farther apart?" Are you kidding me? I could choose Fang Gnome and Brokedown Palace and come up with the same distinctions. You have chosen two entirely unrelated stories. YES, you have to compare to stories with similar elements in order to prove how different they are. If you're going to use Beowulf, then compare Conan, which has the same tropes and elements, but Beowulf contains more feeling and produces a story that is much more fantastical than anything I've seen from Conan. If you're going to do the Hobbit (the least exciting of J.R.R. Tolkien's books outside the Silmerillion), then you should choose the Odyssey for comparison, which was MORE fantastical, and yet contains many of the same elements (much because Tolkien was clearly influenced by the Odyssey).
So you're admitting you can't do it, then? Or are you going to actually make any of the comparisons you allude to in your post? If you want to compare Beowulf and Conan, then do so, don't just say that you could.

Again; you come across as believing that your statements are so self-evident that you don't need to support them or explain them. I assure you that they are not. If you can't do more than that, then you've got no call to complain about difficulties with me and actually having a discussion. At all points in this thread, you've rather pointedly dodged every attempt to engage you in discussion.
Corjay said:
So, if anything, modern fiction is neither as original, nor as fantastical as ancient works, especially when you consider the stories of the gods.
Never said that it was or wasn't. That's completely irrelevent. Again; you make no distinction between fantasy as just a plain Jane English word and Fantasy as a more carefully constrained and defined genre of literature.
 

I hereby unofficially dub you the winner of this thread.

Indeed. Between seusomon and GSHamster, we should all consider ourselves schooled. That was an excellent analysis and deep consideration of the mindset behind the two genres. However, I have to comment that while they were not consciously aware of the differences, the storytellers did know that they were enhancing the tale. But then there may have been a purpose for that, such as meme. For instance, a Minotaur is more interesting than a crocodile. And saying that Theseus forgot to change the sail, causing his father to commit suicide, isn't as good as saying that the jilted princess cast a curse on him, causing him to lose the white sails in a storm and replace them with the black, causing his father to commit suicide.
 
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What is this? Debate club?

If you want to be a stickler about it, I'll point out that in every critical work I've ever seen it's pretty much assumed that the modern fantasy genre started with E. R. Eddision, William Morris and Lord Dunsany, or roundabouts. Since you're the one proposing something different than the null hypothesis conventional and accepted position, it actually is very much your job to do more than simply say, "no, that ain't true because I say so."

So you're admitting you can't do it, then? Or are you going to actually make any of the comparisons you allude to in your post? If you want to compare Beowulf and Conan, then do so, don't just say that you could.

Again; you come across as believing that your statements are so self-evident that you don't need to support them or explain them. I assure you that they are not. If you can't do more than that, then you've got no call to complain about difficulties with me and actually having a discussion. At all points in this thread, you've rather pointedly dodged every attempt to engage you in discussion.

Never said that it was or wasn't. That's completely irrelevent. Again; you make no distinction between fantasy as just a plain Jane English word and Fantasy as a more carefully constrained and defined genre of literature.
You have to actually pose a specific challenge in order to get an answer to that challenge. If I make a claim and it goes unchallenged, then it is either accepted or ignored. I challenged your claim and you expected ME to provide the evidence for YOUR claim. You posed your challenge to my claims here, but it's a little late. You and I have both been outclassed already. I'm not going to waste my breath on something that is already pretty much resolved.
 

Once again, I have to point out, no. Lucas pulled his reluctant hero straight out of mythology. Everything that made up Star Wars came out of ancient mythology. Odysseus was a reluctant hero, Perseus was a reluctant hero, and I know there were others.

How was Odysseus, king and leader of men, a reluctant hero?

Reluctant hero means more than, "Gee, I wish I was somewhere else".

Now, I'll certainly concede that much of modern fantasy owes its genesis in myth and legend. Of course that's true. Heck, pretty much EVERY genre does. I mean, you can pretty much draw a direct line between daytime soap opera and Greek tragedy. But, just because one form grandfathers the other, does not make them the same genre.
 

I'll let you have that simply because, to me, that part of the discussion is over. Now, how about a discussion about the difference between modern fantasy and late pre-Tolkien fantasy...

(Nothing comes to my mind just yet, except maybe Alice in Wonderland, but maybe someone else wants to start off on that stuff).
 

I'll let you have that simply because, to me, that part of the discussion is over.
Oh, well. There goes the reply that I was going to make.
Corjay said:
Now, how about a discussion about the difference between modern fantasy and late pre-Tolkien fantasy...

(Nothing comes to my mind just yet, except maybe Alice in Wonderland, but maybe someone else wants to start off on that stuff).
E. R. Eddison. William Morris. Lord Dunsany. The entire Sword & Sorcery pulp tradition. Frank Baum.

Plenty of pre-Tolkien fantasy that's even considered part of the more constricted modern fantasy genre rather than the more broad "simple fantasy."
 

I'll let you have that simply because, to me, that part of the discussion is over. Now, how about a discussion about the difference between modern fantasy and late pre-Tolkien fantasy...

(Nothing comes to my mind just yet, except maybe Alice in Wonderland, but maybe someone else wants to start off on that stuff).

The stuff Hobo mentioned is the main stuff. You'll find some 'quasi-fantasy' stuff now and again, or metaphoric fairy-tale stuff. One major movement you'll see is 'Dark Fantasy', which is kind of this offshoot of horror. Lovecraft and his proteges used that a lot when they were not writing out-and-out horror. Most of Lovecraft's Dreamlands tales usually fall into that category.

William Hope Hodgson: Night Land, in 1912 is a combination of science fiction and horror but so weird and dreamlike that you could certainly call it fantasy and not far miss the mark.

ER Eddison (the Worm Ouroboros) in 1922 and Peake's Gormenghast trilogy (where you can see his health decline as he writes) are two of the bigger names from the period as well.

Tolkien really doesn't take hold in the US until the mid to late Sixties when the college kids discover him. That's when you start getting 'Frodo Lives!' painted on subway cars and stuff. That, in turn, fuels publishers to say 'Tolkien sold this way - make everything exactly like this'. It's not so much writers aping him (though there certainly are some) as writing what publishers will buy, and publishers want a fat three-book epic-fantasty series.

You also get some throwbacks to Conan, the only thing resembling Tolkien that sold well up to that point (though we're still talking the edited/revised/rewritten by L. Sprague de Camp Conan, mostly). Brak, Thongor, and about a half-dozen others. Probably one of the last Conan-inspired heroes is Niall of the Far Travels, done by Gardner Fox for early issues of The Dragon. (Most people remember Gardner Fox asociated with the Silver Age Flash or inventing the Batarang, but he did tons of other stuff).

Lin Carter, whatever his other sins are, does edit the Adult Fantasy imprint that brings to light many older fantasy works.
 


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