Fourth Edition is a MASTERPIECE!

[Fallen Seraph]

While it is true 4e takes from other RPGs, I think that is what it needed to do.

D&D, I always felt was somewhat behind the curve in RPG design and scrambling to catch up with supplements that alter the rules, etc. Now with 4e, that they have taken examples from others and built their own way as well it actually can stand up as a new RPG.

Which is damn good in my eyes

 

[Surgoshan]

Minor things I still have reservations about:
1) Grab seems to weak to be the full end-all and be all for grappling. It seems that there are many cinematic action scenes that require more powerful grappling by at least some monsters and some player character builds. I agree third edition grappling was overpowered, but it would be nice to have some more effective grapple-like rules for some monsters and for one or more future martial character classes or martial powers.

Garrote Grip Rogue Attack 15
The more your enemy struggles, the less you want to let him go.
Daily * Martial, Reliable, Weapon
Standard Action (Special) Melee Weapon
Special: You can use this power as a minor action if you have already grabbed a creature. Doing so requires no attack roll.
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature.
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you grab the target. Until the target escapes, you have cover, and any melee attack or ranged attack that misses you hits the target instead.
Sustain Minor: Sustain the grab for another round. The third time you sustain the grab after using this power, the target falls unconscious. If an unconscious target takes any damage, it is no longer unconscious.

 

[cdrcjsn]

2) Some powers are a bit too illogical to me in how they work, and will require an extra effort for suspension of disbelief while describing how their mechanics take effect in the game world. In particular the cleric and paladin buffs where you have to hit an enemy to grant a buff to someone. But these are a minor complaint compared to the positives.

Smashing your opponent's face in is the Somatic component of the spell?

 

[Gothmog]

We played our first 4E session last night, and I have to say that 4E is a vast improvement over 3.x in every way, shape, and form.

Character creation was a breeze, rather than the ordeal it was in 3.x, with agonizing over feats and skills. Even the 1st level powers for characters were cool and interesting, and we quickly noticed that there are many more than the two possible "builds" listed in each character section. One player made a paladin of the Raven Queen, who ended up being more of a force of fear and fate than a "normal" paladin (he took Fearsome Strike and On Pain of Death as his encounter and daily powers). Very cool. Powers for different classes were well balanced, and everybody had something fun or interesting to do.

Combats were fast, dynamic, and fun- this really reminded me of Savage Worlds (which is an incredibly good thing). I noticed the players trying lots of interesting things they never attempted in 3.x, and when I asked them later, they said it was BECAUSE eveything wasn't codified in the books that they thought "what the hell- I'll give it a shot". I just improvised, let them make a skill or attribute check, and went on with the game.

Combats also were free-flowing and chaotic. Combatants were constantly moving around, shifting, and jockeying for optimal position. I'll say this too- kobolds and goblins are NASTY due to their ability to shift pretty freely. A character who isn't careful can find himself surrounded quickly, or maneuvered into a bad position. This is a huge improvement over the typical 3.x phenomena of stand in one place and hit things until they go down.

I also really, REALLY like that magic can't solve everything in 4E like it could in previous editions. Rituals now take the place of many of the previous spells that could pretty much break a game (Discen Lies for example is the bane of a mystery adventure). Now even the spellcasting characters need to pay attention to their skills, and think of creative ways to use them. This is great for me and my group, as we prefer a lower-magic setting by default, and 4e finally made it possible for us to play this way using D&D!

Finally, I have to say the books are gorgeous. The art is evocative and well done, and characters are usually shown in an environment that really makes you think "wow, thats cool- I could use something like that in this adventure." Some of my favorites are the white dragon battle on p 50-51 of the PHB, the trap painting on 176-177 of the PHB, the sprung trap on p270 of the PHB, the goblin ambush on p 4-5 of the DMG, the yeth hounds on p 63 of the DMG, the elf ritual on 118-199 of the DMG, the undead horde on p 130-131 of the DMG, and pretty much the entire MM- there are so many improvements in the art over 3.x that its not even funny. And nowhere in there is there any bit of dungeonpunk crap! Yay!

I admit that before I had a chance to read 4E, I had some misgivings and trepidation about it, but after reading and playing it (and definitely more playing in the future), I can say I'm not reluctant about 4E anymore. I'm an old-school gamer (started with 1E), and I can say without a doubt, 4E is the most fun and easiest to run D&D there has ever been!

Seriously? As much as I like 4E - this is not genius. A lot of these points you list are sort of old. Cribbed from games like Savage Worlds, some bits from Storyteller, a lot of Forge-isms.

It's standing on the shoulders of giants.

But that makes it good.

Cheers, LT.

I noticed when I got the core books earlier this week that a LOT of things seemed to have been borrowed from Savage Worlds- which was a very good move on the designer's part. SW is a game of pure genius, as is the Storyteller system. Its about time D&D was updated with a smoother system and better narrative model.

 

[hectorse]

I haven't got my books but from what I've read I see almost nothing that was included without a purpose

 

[Fallen Seraph]

2) Some powers are a bit too illogical to me in how they work, and will require an extra effort for suspension of disbelief while describing how their mechanics take effect in the game world. In particular the cleric and paladin buffs where you have to hit an enemy to grant a buff to someone. But these are a minor complaint compared to the positives.

In my eyes, it is less that the hitting causes the buff, and more that the Paladin or Cleric is going through a series of actions, so be like; "Paladin swings his sword and lobs off a goblin's head, he glances back to the Rogue and clenches his holy object, whispering a quick prayer that bestows his god's blessing on the Rogue"

So it isn't that the hit is needed to make the buff work, but that the Paladin both hits and then buffs during that standard action, and if he fails in hitting and thus fails in casting the buff. That simply means, he failed in both attempts.

Essentially your cutting down multiple rolls to just one or two, I like it

Also, why I am houseruling that powers that buff yourself or allies or affect surroundings, etc. can be activated without a hit (if it is reasonable and makes sense).

 

[shadowguidex]

I wrapped up my final 3E adventure last night, and we'll begin a brand new 4E campaign in two weeks. I can't wait!

Everything I see from a Dungeon Master's standpoint is a total upgrade in my ability to create an storyline with exciting and compelling combat, suspenseful and interesting plotlines, and as always, fun roleplaying.

 

[Vaeron]

Or the cleric screams "By the power of Greyskull!" or whatever, and whaps a goblin. Greyskull's boon flashes around them, and his rogue ally is healed.

 

[JesterOC]

...As much as I like 4E - this is not genius. A lot of these points you list are sort of old. Cribbed from games like Savage Worlds, some bits from Storyteller, a lot of Forge-isms.

It's standing on the shoulders of giants.

Just remember that all other RPG's are standing on Dungeons and Dragons shoulders too. Which is really had to visualize


JesterOC