Fourth Edition just feels... incomplete

[Obryn]

I dunno. When I compare 4e vs. the 3.5 core books, it seems like a very complete game to me.

There's a dearth of high-level options, but really I expected those to be in splatbooks anyway.

I can't see any single glaring hole, other than the 'missing' classes & races.

Maybe it's the relative dearth of flavor text?

-O

 

[Remathilis]

My question is, what do you think they could have done about i? The books are packed with as much crunch as humanly possible; there is literally almost zero space spent on fluff in any of the books (as you yourself point out for the MM).

See, thats the thing. I'm not sure that they could've really cut anything. Beyond editing the DMG to put magic items back in (and using the MI space in the PH for something else) I'm not sure there was anything they could've done.

That's definitely the feeling I get as well. Epic destinies, traps and skill challenges and artifacts all feel incomplete. But I think the starter set is a good example. There's enough there to have a really good time. And given what we have now, it would be pretty easy to create the rest on your own. But its plenty clear what other sort of stuff is coming down the line, because their absence is conspicuous.

Exactly my point!

3 books for 4e versus the... ummm... 3 shelves of 3.x books...

NOPE. Re-read. I was comparing the 3.5 CORE RULES vs. the 4e CORE RULES. three books to three books. Even with the 4e books bigger and stuffed to the gills, they still feel they are missing some stuff...

So every so often I stop and remember that there are more paragon paths alone in the PHB than there are classes and prestige classes added together in the 3.5 core books. And then I don't feel so bad.

True, true. The classes actually don't feel so underwhelming (taking into account 8 vs 11, but its understandable with the page count each class takes).

Its the other little things (equipment, magic items, monsters, epic destinies, traps and skill challenges) that feel a little, ah, shortchanged.

Still, I have yet to PLAY the game, just read it. Perhaps my opinion will change once the game gets going, but for now...

 

[Scribble]

I think it's the "streamlined" factor you're seeing... In 3e there were a ton of options, but really only a few things you would ever actually DO.

IE once you start down the path of a certain feat, you stay in that path, or you're character loses ground.

In 4e they've come right out and said here are the paths that are set up in the core books.Have at ye. If you can figure other stuff out... go for it.

Also, in 3e, there was a rule (or their tried to be) for almost anything you could think of doing. They tried to keep it in specifics. If you want to do X it is under x skill with a dc of x modified by x y and z...

4e handles it by saying, if it isn't specifically stated, wing it with these guidelines. (allowing the system to be flexible and handle all kinds of situations but without bogging you down with specifics.)

 

[Remathilis]

Maybe it's the relative dearth of flavor text?

That might be part of it. For all the talk of the FLYWHEEL design team coming up with a storyline, relatively little of it appears in the descriptions of the monsters or even the descriptions of the planes or world.

 

[The Little Raven]

Personally, it feels more complete to me than any previous edition, particularly because it gives me the math behind the rules. Transparency makes it far more usable.

 

[occam]

It just seems soooo much stuff got left on the cutting room floor (excuse me: saved for PH/DMG/MM2)

Each class has roughly two builds and just enough powers to support both of them. There are four paragons per class and four epic destinies. While there are nearly 300 monsters in the Monster Manual, there is really around 120 + variants (orc bloodrager, orc cursespewer, orc beatingtaker, etc). The amount of fluff on each monster is minimal (the descriptions of monsters rarely involve more than 20 words + a picture. No "You see..." text.) and the magic items (even wondrous items) seem to be nothing more than +X and/or Y special effect.

I never thought I'd go grognard, but my first read over left me feeling all substance, no style.

Speaking from the position of someone who doesn't have the books yet, this is a concern for me. Heck, I missed not having the 2e MC-style ecologies and such for monsters in 3e, and now it looks like even the 3e fluff is getting cut down. I don't want monsters, magic items, powers, etc. to feel only like gaming constructs. Still, my concern is so far based on previews; we'll see how the actual books feel.

 

[MrMyth]

NOPE. Re-read. I was comparing the 3.5 CORE RULES vs. the 4e CORE RULES. three books to three books. Even with the 4e books bigger and stuffed to the gills, they still feel they are missing some stuff...

And, honestly, if I went from the current environment to the three 3rd Edition Core Books, they would feel incomplete as well. I mean, look at one of the biggest innovations of 3rd Edition - Prestige Classes. Of which the core books had... what, a dozen at most? Look at the feats - a few key ones, and a lot of filler.

They did have a more comprehensive amount of magic items. On the other hand, trimming down the magic item list meant being able to fit it in the PHB, which is fantastic - and the Tome of Treasures (or whatever it is called) is not far down the line, which should fill things in completely.

An instance, as you said, of us needed to get another book to be 'complete' - but the 3rd Edition player with just the PHB was entirely without the magic item rules. He had to buy the DMG just to know what his character could do with his items - which seems an equally profound flaw.

I do understand what you are saying. But I don't think the 3rd Edition Core Books were any more all-encompassing. They felt that way because there was no experience with really expanded options - going back to them now would be just as limiting as jumping into 4th Edition. At least, in my opinion.

 

[Negflar2099]

Is it too much to ask for some patience? I just don't see how we can compare an edition of a game that isn't even officially out yet to one that has been around for 7+ years. I know 4e is expensive and it changes a lot so it's scary. You want to know that your investment is going to go towards a good game, but c'mon already! The game is right three books (4 if you count KoTS, 6 if you count the preview books). Compare that to the hundreds of books for 3e isn't fair at all. That's like saying Xbox 360 sucks because in the first few months it was out it only had a handful of games. That's just ridiculous.

Also while I'm at it can I just vent a little about the fact that everybody and their grandmother's grandmother seems to have an early (and illegal) copy of the three books while the rest of us sit here with nothing to tide us over except KoTS? I mean is anyone else getting miffed that the books are being read (and critiqued) and we can't read it for ourselves to see if there's any truth to what people are saying? Is it possible that I'm the only one that doesn't already have the books?

 

[Praeden]

Ok, I've been a long time supporter (f4nboy) of 4e, but after *ahem* perusing the books for myself, I can't help but feel...

Fourth Edition feels incomplete.

snip......

Am I alone? Am I crazy? (don't answer that). Does anyone else who has seen the books feel they are a little...empty on the inside?

You've articulated my own thoughts perfectly. Especially with regards to monsters and magic items. I tell myself that there's no way they could have gotten all the good stuff from 3.X, plus new additions, into the first 3 rulebooks. But there's still this feeling that we're not quite there yet.

As you say, the DMG could have benefitted from keeping the magic items (as it is, it barely holds my interest for 10 minutes, a far cry from the first AD&D DMG). That would have freed up 30 pages in the PHB, which I'm sure could have been put to good use.

I think I'll probably play 4E one day. But I suspect it won't be until more material is available.

 

[JesterOC]

Even with the 4e books bigger and stuffed to the gills, they still feel they are missing some stuff...

With the Fighter, Rogue, WarLord, and Paladin all taking up a LOT more space than they ever did before, I would assume that other areas would have to suffer.

It might be stuff you just can't think about at the moment, but there is only so much space in these books. With the spell casters no longer sharing any spell descriptions, and all other classes having as many spell descriptions as the "spell casters"... yeah, they would have to have complete control over time and space to be able cover all the bases for everything else.

Either way I am going to get the set and Friday and I will be able to better gauge my thoughts on this matter. At this point I like the idea of the fighters and rogues getting as many options as the casters. If that mean that I need to buy a bunch of more books to fill them out even more, well bring em on! Since I have not spent any money on 3.5 books I guess I can splurge on 4e.


JesterOC

Edited because I rambled on a bit too much.