Fourth Fantastic Location: Dragonsdown Grotto

[mearls]

Not all of us play the DDM game though.

But that's sort of my point - the maps are intended for both D&D and DDM, but gamers either don't see that (we haven't marketed them well) or they don't care (the maps just don't fill a need for D&D players). It's interesting trying to figure out where the truth lies, particularly since the maps seem popular for D&D here at WotC.

As for random miniatures, it's an issue that comes up. The economic reality is that random packaging allows us to do a lot more miniatures at a higher quality level and with a much easier burden on retailers and distributors. Non-random packs have come up in conversations about minis at the office.

(At this point, I'm taking off my official WotC employee hat. I don't work on the production side of things. This is purely my take on it as a gamer who happens to have worked in the RPG business for 6 years.)

The key is that the random packs sell well, and they're only selling better with each release. If we wanted to do a non-random set, there are a few issues that we'd have to deal with.

If we did non-random sets, we'd have to do them in such a way that appeals to the people who already buy the random packs. If we offer a set of minis that they already have from previous sets, they probably just won't buy them. There's a big risk there that if we lose the people who are already happy with the line, there aren't enough buyers left over who are interested.

If we put exclusive figures in the set, there would likely be problems with keeping costs down and making the set's retail price reasonable to people. This ties into Merric's Law: a miniatures game can be two of the following things: cheap, pre-painted plastic, or non-random. Given that we're commited to pre-painted plastic here, cheap has to fall off that menu.

That causes a number of issues: will people who are happy to buy boosters spring for a more expensive set? If that set has an exclusive figure or three, will they be happy that they're paying more per figure than if we just included those figures in a standard set? Given that boosters sell really well, is the demand out there sufficient to meet the increased costs?

I think it's an issue that seems pretty straightforward, but it quickly becomes complex when you try to fit it into the big picture. For now, it looks like eBay, popularcollections.com, and similar sources are filling the needs of people who want singles.

So, that doesn't really help you, but I hope it helps explain why things are the way they are.

 

[MerricB]

I can say from personal experience that my recent D&D experiences have significantly changed when I've been using a predrawn battlemat.

I've run part of Fane of the Drow, and I've also just finished running Mike's "Three Faces of Evil." For the latter, I either drew out the battlemat on the spot (for the maze section), or I had it all drawn out beforehand (temple of hextor).

It changes things. One thing it does is allow more reactive play from the monsters. If I'd been running in my traditional (no minis) way, I would have had the high priest turn up only when the characters entered his room. That's the way the dungeon key layout encourages.

However, when you have the room drawn out on the mat, it's very easy to just put his figure down there and realise that "hey, he'd notice that his acolytes are being slaughtered", and work out how he'd engage the enemy.

Then too in the maze. Plenty of secret doors and enemies popping out of them.

It also make movement an actual factor in the game for players. I can't think of the number of games of AD&D (and 3e) that devolved into: I move to engage - and that was it for the combat. Apart from giving flanking, and thus tactical positioning, a game bonus, there is also the possibility of tactical withdrawal to a better position.

The trouble I have with the maps in the Fantastic Locations products can simply be boiled down to usefulness past the scenarios they were designed for.

Here's how I'd rate those in "Fane of the Drow"
* Mithral Mines: High usefulness. (Cave tunnels are readily adaptable)
* Tomb of Queen Peregrine: High usefulness. (Crypt complex likewise)
* Drow Enclave: Medium usefulness (not bad for a wizard's or summoner's lab)
* Fane of Lolth: Low usefulness. (The spider & altar motifs are problematic)

And for Dungeon #337:
* Drow Outpost: High usefulness. (Cave tunnels with chasms? I'm sold )

I haven't got Hellspike Prison yet, although the lava rivers do limit its usefulness somewhat. (I guess you might call them normal rivers?)

Mike's slightly misquoted my law: it's "a large range of minis" not "prepainted figures", but the two terms are very similar. Call it a "large range of prepainted figures". And the thing about D&D is that it uses a lot of different monsters. You have to have a large range of figures.

Such is a nightmare for the retailer and distributor to stock. It also precludes the possibility of weird creatures. The random model allows figures with limited usefulness to be made, and thus available to those people who *do* want them.

(Non-random means you have to be a mind reader to not have a lot of stock left over. There's a premium on non-random figures to cover that cost.)

Cheers!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Mike, since you're following this thread apparently, I'd like to chime in with two observations. First, I second the observation about detailed, preprinted battlemaps making for more interesting combats. The last game I ran, I went to the trouble of modifying some Heroquest tiles I found online to create a bridge over a gorge with a river at the bottom of it. A chimera attacked a herd of cows as the crossed the bridge, stampeding them over the PCs. Since the PCs were heros and there was a wicked beast, they decided to take the fight to the Chimera. That's where it got interesting. The bridge I had drawn out had stone rails along the side of the bridge. So, one player whose character has a lot of balance has her jump onto the rails and balance on them as she runs up the bridge to the wyvern. She is hit, knocked off the bridge, lands in the water, climbs and climbs up the other side as the half orc monk approaches from the front. The both make it onto the bridge at roughly the same time and realize that the only way to flank the hovering wyvern is for them to be balancing on opposite rails of the bridge. So they do that. How much more cinematic can you get? However, if I didn't have a detailed map that showed the thick stone railings of the bridge, I don't think it would have happened.

In theatre they have a saying: if there's a gun on the matlepiece in act 1, it will go off before act 5. In D&D, there's something of a corrolary, if there's a railing/barrel/pit on the battlemap, someone will jump on top of it, be bullrushed into it, etc. If the battlemap is not at detailed, it's less likely that those cinematic moments will happen.

So, I really like the idea of preprinted battlemaps.

That brings me to the second part though: From what I've seen on the wizard's website, etc, however, I don't think too much of THESE preprinted battlemaps. The simple top-down, no perspective approach (thick black lines of walls and black areas for pits, etc) really seems uninteresting compared to, for instance, 0one games' 3d-modelled perspective battlemaps. I like the idea, but I want it to look like 0-one games' dwarf temple, boat landing, or inn. Now that I'm used to 3-d perspective and lighting effects, I don't want to go back.

 

[No Name]

So, that doesn't really help you, but I hope it helps explain why things are the way they are.

It does. I understand that some decisions must be made in order to keep sales up; pleasing every customer while sinking the business isn't the best way to go (I did minor in general business in college you know).

Hopefully, some middle ground can be found. Perhaps common or uncommon versions of popular "rare" monsters could appear. Not every mind flayer has to be a telepath.

I'll put in an order for Hellspike Prison at my FLGS tomorrow and give it a go. A friend and I were talking about it (the usefulness and reusability of the maps anyway) just last night. And we did play a few rounds of DDM on the map from Dragon. My Balor had a feast.

Usually what we use for roleplaying is a vinal map and wet-erase pens. That's what the preprinted maps are competing with. Drawing what's desired on the spot offers a lot of versatility (and a sometimes messy cleanup).

Anyway, enough rambling. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me.

 

[Patman21967]

I'll tell you what I think would be a huge seller, is a pack of grid sheets that are disposable and inexpensive. I just ran Champions Games, in the Age of Worms, and although I have a chessex Battlemat, I really wanted to make the battlefield large, so we all pulled out the grids from the DM's guide, and used 2 from "Fane" to give us the scale I wanted. I think a group of 6 paper grids, that could be thrown away, after drawing spell effects, bodies, rooms...whatever...would be invaluable to GM's