[FR] Campaign Setting interpretation diatribe

[Henry]

Posted by Celtavian:

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Not really. Two points. 1) Magic balances itself out. For every magical action there is an equal and opposite reaction. 2) Electricity does not change its properties based on who or what is arround to influence an active current. Magic does. Thus it is more unpredictable, and this unpredictability keeps it from working like a technology. That is why most spell effects (in almost all literature) are short or instant.
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Point 1 is false. There is no opposite reaction to every magical act. Where you derive such a false statement from I cannot imagine.

Point 2 is also false, especially so in the realms.

I have to agree with the two assumptions myself.

Point 1: There is a an opposite reaction to every magical act, and it is one of the factors that cause so much discussion in our rules forum:

"How do I keep someone dead?"
"How do I keep my players from establishing a magical teleportation network?"
"Why isn't every street in the Realms lit by continual flame?"

For every detect magic, there is undectible aura. For every invisibility, there is see invisibility. For every curse, there is break enchantment. For every meteor swarm, there is raise dead, or true resurrection. For every earthquake spell that breaks a village in half, there is wish. About the only form of death that cannot be cured in the realms is death from old age. It may not be an exact fit, but for all intents and purposes, the Realms has counterbalances in most magic.

Point 2:Magic does change its properties based on who or what is arround to influence an active current, because magic has one thing that electricity does not: It has a goddess who controls its flow. Admittedly, she doesn't do much unless you attempt to become a god, or destroy the weave, but then electricity stops flowing when you use it to zap it's own power station, too. Let's say you don't like electricity, and want to use magnetism to power your devices? There's Shar, controlling the shadow weave. She has her own rules and regulations for mages wishing to power their magics from her weave.

It's also why the longest standing magical effects in all the realms - the Mythals - have subtly changed their characteristics over time. Check out the mythals of Myth drannor and the one at Myth Rynn (mage 296 of the FRCS) for more details.

 

[Berandor]

Hong: Excellent quote there! As someone who reads most FR novels and supplements to keep up with the setting, I have experienced that reaction myself and seen it in my fellow gamers. When someone is uncovered wearing a ring with the likeness of a dragon engraved on it, all the players go "Dragon Cult? Damn we're in trouble!". It's surely a great way to enhance the game - and to mess with player's expectations.

Swack-Iron: I think when people complain about high-levell NPCs or whatever, they are basically stating that the FR aren't to their liking. It's just a more detailed way of saying it, namely stating what exactly bithers them.

What I don't like about the Realms stems mainly from the novels, and from the fact that magic solves any problem. I can name various novels that included parts I didn't like specifically:
Elminster in Hell, where pit fiends and other high devils are defeated with the flick of a hand. Not that they defeat pit fiends, but that very powerful devils just burst apart with one gesture. That's boring. Now don't get me wrong. I actually like Elminster and the Chosen.
Return of the Archwizards Book III, when the Chosen travel inside the heroes bowels with protection from acid and reduce. That's not only gross, it's a cop-out that I as GM would hesitate to allow my players.
Most novels, and the reason why the Realms are not gritty in the end: The good guys win. Everytime and in every angle. Not even Evereska is overrun with Phaerimm, but the few survivors fend them off in the end. Not one of Drizzt's friends dies, but they all resurface and survive, and come back healthy (o.K., Wulfgar has made it through a lot of trouble, but at the end of the novel, all's well). And all other small instances where it seems that some evil group gains ground - in the end, they lose. Each and every time. Other examples include Red Wizard's attacks on Aglarond and Rashemen, the Zhentarim's downfall in Daggerdale, the seven-hundred and fifty-three invasions of Shadowdale, the invasion of Evermeet, and so on...
The drow now hold Cormanthor - but nothing will follow this.

One notable exception is the Fall of Azoun and Tanalesta of Cormyr, as written in "Death of the Dragon".

As to Magic is incorporated logically into the Realms: Really? Then what about "Raise Dead" spells and its ilk? Wouldn't all those mighty people that died throughout the course of its history have been brought back? Azoun springs to mind immediately, but also evil factions. Are Ressurections and Scryings truly incorporated?
I would assume that Cormyr has a permanent Scrying room that guards the Stonelands, so that they see when humanoids form roving bands. Or that people try to scry upon rulers to learn their doings. What about a great "Detect Undead/Detect Evil" spell trying to find Dracoliches? Or Mass teleports for armies (imagine Thay's skeleton army traveling through massive teleport spells into the middle of Aglarond); "Create Water" at city wells, combined with "Purify food and drink"; invisible city guards (armed with boots of flying); incredible architectural feats manufactured with "Fabricate"; animated carts used for traveling through a city; water-breathing hobby divers; magic mouth-"do not disturb"-signs in hotels; you get the idea.
Frankly, the inclusion of magic into the Realms is more a "that would be cool"-factor than a logical and wll-thought application. Perhaps the best example concerns courts of justice:
With the alignments (detectable), Lie-detection, truth-forcing magic, high-level scryings and detect thoughts as well as the possibility to speak with deceased victims, there should be an infallible system of justice and law-enforcement in the Realms.
A wand of detect thoughts and a wand of discern lies go a long way towards determining justice.

The only reason this is not a perfect world is that there are all kinds of anti-magic-spells in existance. You can't scry into Thay, for example, and a ring of mind shielding helps in court (but should raise suspicions). Cormyr's nobles have a plea that doesn't allow for them to be raised.
That's basically the same as saying the magic doesn't exist at all, and that's not incorporating it logically into the world.

Still, (I think it isn't obvious from my post) I play the Realms since I play D&D, and I DM the Realms, too (together with Kalamar). They are hokey, and chaotic, and sometimes silly, but I love them. My players know the Realms, and the setting's structure (or lack thereof) grants me the leeway to basically do what I want with them. Every family has its black sheep, and the RRealms have theirs, but still.

Berandor

 

[Celtavian]

re

Point 1: There is a an opposite reaction to every magical act, and it is one of the factors that cause so much discussion in our rules forum:

"How do I keep someone dead?"
"How do I keep my players from establishing a magical teleportation network?"
"Why isn't every street in the Realms lit by continual flame?"

For every detect magic, there is undectible aura. For every invisibility, there is see invisibility. For every curse, there is break enchantment. For every meteor swarm, there is raise dead, or true resurrection. For every earthquake spell that breaks a village in half, there is wish. About the only form of death that cannot be cured in the realms is death from old age. It may not be an exact fit, but for all intents and purposes, the Realms has counterbalances in most magic.

You are mistaken on point 1 as well:

What you are stating is not an opposite reaction, but a magical reaction meant to deal with a particular situation.

Ressurect spells are meant to bring you back from death, magical or otherwise. They are not meant to counter or oppose magical death effects, though they can do this as well.

See invisibility is a way to see through invisibility, as well as see ethereal and astral beings. Just as dispel magic isn't a counter to invisibility, just a way to deal with it and other magical effects.

Break Enchantment breaks not only curses, but petrification, charm and other magical effects.

Very few spells are opposite reactions, but magical reactions themselves with a different effect.


Point 2: One could also argue that unforseen forces control electricity or gravity, but we don't.

In the Realms, the Weave is relatively static for all intents and purposes. It has limitations imposed upon it by the goddess Mystra, but even Mystra herself believes in consistency.

 

[Adlon]

Ahh, the FRCS. One of my areas of experience, to be sure.

I ran a 6 year long campaign in the FRCS, during 2E's heyday. I have ALL of the accessories and sourcebooks published by TSR for FRCS, and all the 3E sources published by WotC.
We played EVERY saturday night, from about 6 PM to 2 AM the following morning. My party finally retired out at average 23rd level.

I found the FRCS very pliable. What appealed to me the most, initially, was the fact that I didn't have to re-invent the wheel. Here was a world already done for me. Politics, geography, history, NPC's, POI's, maps. Detailed accessories on specific regions and/or cities. The 2E FRCS still to this day has one of the best citybooks ever done: Waterdeep and the North, originally about 9$ retail.

I have seen threads like this one many times, usually more heated over the Realms, so, I have usually stayed out of said threads.

What I've seen, is, that people dont like either:
* High Magic
* Drizzt
* Elminster
* Other published NPC's
* Harpers/other organizations
* The plethora of accessories that have been published
* The inaccuracies between the novels, and the CS
* The novels themselves

Or certain combinations of the above.
What I can say about these common dislikes, is very basic.
If one doesn't like the presentation of possible High Magic, then, tame it down. IMG, the 5-6th level PC's were happy to have found a +1 Longsword. A ring of Feather Fall was a treasure to behold. The massive inconvenience that my mages had to endure to learn that Fireball spell.

Magic 'strength' can be pumped up or down very easily.

On Drizzt, or other NPC's. If you dont want Drizzt in your game, dont use him. Same for Elminster, or any published NPC's.
The PC's need not even KNOW about such legendary NPC's, if you choose to have it that way.

IMG, the PC's DID meet Elminster. One of the group was from Shadowdale afterall. They also met Alustriel, Mirt, Kelben, Laeral. And several other NPC's. The SAW Drizzt from a distance ONCE.
But these high level NPC's were not used as a wall to guide the PC's, or as 'buddinsky's', or as spoilers.
They were only used to remind the party that there ARE greater ones than them. Just about the time the PC's were feeling cocky to the extreme, they met an NPC who, by presence alone, re-set the tone of the game.

For everyday NPC mentoring, spoilering, or butting into the PC's adventure, I had my OWN NPC's for that, IF needed.

As for the amount of stuff published. It's a successful CS. What can be said about that...
I personally liked the amount of stuff out there. I was free to pick and choose what I'd use and not use.
Relating to 2E materials, I used:
* Haunted Halls of Eveningstar: my first adventure I ran for this game, eventually to become the PC's homebase.
* Cormyr: Eveningstar was after all the PC's home area, and Eveningstar is in Cormyr.
* The Dale Lands, and the Shadowdale booklet from the Rev. 2E FRCS.
* Waterdeep and the North
* Ruins of Undermountain
* Savage Frontier (The Silverymoon area)
* Ruins of Myth Drannor
* The Moonsea
* Moonshae (Our Ranger was from one of the Moonshae's)

Over 6 years long, that game, and still I had a ton of stuff left over from those materials I mentioned. The rest, though I owned them, I never used.

I intermingled many published generic AD&D modules, modifying as needed. I also used a few FRCS modules. A ton of Dungeon Magazine adventures. Adventures from Temple, Tower, Tomb, Book's of Lairs, and the like.
Along with a bunch of my own adventures.

My point being, the CS IS modularized, in the way that you can use or NOT use whatever you want or like/dislike.
But what you get, is alot of detail. For some DM's (me in particular), this can be a nice gift. Most of the tedious stuff is already done for you.
If you're in Waterdeep, you have many sources for Taverns, Inns, shops, NPC' and other POI's.

Those of us DM's who would rather put your limited time into the adventure itself, can freely do so with a highly detailed CS like the FRCS, or the Scarred Lands.

As for the novels. I have them all. I have read them all. That group from my 6 year game had 2-3 people who read them all.
And their events had NOTHING to do with my FRCS game.
We played Post ToT, so, the war of the gods was past.
While in Waterdeep, the party got to meet Danillo Than, and Aurilyn Moonblade, but, the party didn't get involved in the intrigue that those two NPC's had going on. It was a chance meeting, at a party in Waterdeep, a 'hello, how are you ' meeting. Same mostly for all of the NPC movers and shakers.

The novels, IMO, are all very good reads for lateral story line, but need not be implemented in your game. I did like the fact, though, that if I needed lateral storyline to enter into my game, I was able to pull on those novels, for timeline accuracy. They also helped, from time to time, with extra news and roumors 'from abroad'.

With the FRCS, what you get, is detail. Extensive detail. You can use as much of it as YOU see fit. Or as little as you want.

To those who like the detail and versatility, the FRCS is that. And it looks like the Scarred Lands will go in that direction, which I applaud.

Which is why I'm embracing the SL setting as my next CS for 3E.
I can come home from work, work on my adventure, and have time for other interests around the house.

Granted, the FRCS isn't for everyone. These are just reasons why I like the setting.
But, when you strip away the novels, the high powered NPC's, and all the other fluff people dont like, you STILL have a CS that is very rich in detail.

 

[Mithriltooth]

I have to agree with Jester, d12 and Adlon here. I have been running the realms for my group (though some players have changed) since the grey boxed set.
The Realms are IMO, the most fleshed out campaign setting to date. All the powerfull PCs and power groups add to enjoyment of the setting. A roadside wandering encounter may earn you a friend for life, or an enemy for life. It allows DM's like me to leave certain sub-plots dangling all the time.
Addressing some point of views that have characters tripping over various Ruins often or the fear of travelling beyond settlements, I have a comment or two...

Even though the year is 1372 Dale Reckoning, many of the the older "Forgotten Realms" are in ruins, Faerun is in it's second age and the world is pretty much like a frontier of sorts. There are major well-travelled Roads between most settlements, some of which remain well guarded by various patrols of local garrisons or militia. There are also less travelled and protected trails as well as trackless areas. Most commoners would shun the trails in favor of the better protected well travelled roads. Some will take passage with caravans for the safety in numbers. WE are the adventures, we are the braver people of the realms, we are the ones looking for adventure, fame and fortune not the occasional jaunt for dinner with the Evil mother-in-law from Thay.
As for the ruins, the ancient realms have fallen. Kingdoms like Anauria lie beneath the vast sands of the Anauroch, Myth Drannor in Cormanthor (Cormanthyr way back when), the old cities of the Dwarven Kingdom of Delzoun slowly being reclaimed (Adbar, Felbarr, and Mithril Hall), The Elven kingdom of Eaerlann around the High Forest, The Human Kingdom of Netheril, etc. It's only natural to come across some of these ancient places during the course of adventuring. Commoners of course would most likely avoid these areas and stay to the roads.

On the subject of character bashing.... yes Driz'zt, Elminster, The Simbul, Alustriel, Khelben, etc are indeed popular but I dont have PCs meet them very often. The hardest thing about adventuring in areas like the Dalelands have been for myself as a DM. I intend to put the PCs through an epic such as City Of The Spider Queen. Some people might think if things get out of hand in the Dales, Elminster will step in and save the day anyway rather than let anyplace like Shadowdale or Daggerdale fall etc.
I'm a different DM, If Daggerdale does fall then so be it. This will put a new kink into the Zhentarim's plan anyway. Personally, I like to keep the Elminster's of the Realms always behind the scenes thwarting the plans of the Szass Tams and Fzoul Chembryl's of the land or out world-walking.
On the other hand, lesser known and lower level semi-famous characters interact with my party on a regular basis. Sometimes during and sometimes between adventures on the roadside/camp etc. I particularly like to use some like Jhaer Brightsong ( fem Brd 6) of Mistledale to promote story etc.

As far as the novels go, one of my players ( Priest Of Kossuth on these boards) asked me recently if reading Dissolution and the other 5 CotSQ novels would ruin any of my plans for the party's future. I know he's the kind of player who can separate player knowledge from character knowledge pretty well, so I told him that reading them would only take away some of the surprise of being in a fairly new locale as well as some movers and shakers below. He of course decided not to read the novels .

It' all how you handle it as far as running the realms, and ultimately how memorable you make it.

 

[Henry]

Re: re

What you are stating is not an opposite reaction, but a magical reaction meant to deal with a particular situation.
...
Very few spells are opposite reactions, but magical reactions themselves with a different effect.

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree, becuase what you have described to me are the definitions of counters, one force or move that opposes another. It does not matter that they CAN oppose these things, but rather that they DO, perfectly. Break enchantment, dispel magic, true resurrection, etc. leaves things as if the initial condition never happened - minus material components. I dubt that the original poster meant it in a "Newton's third law" sense - on the contrary, the point was that the Realms is different from a real world setting in this sense. After all, in real life there is no counter for death; there's a counter for clinical death, but even that only has a small chance of working. But in the Realms, and a core-book D&D game, death isn't an end - it's a penalty box.

Point 2: One could also argue that unforseen forces control electricity or gravity, but we don't.

In the Realms, the Weave is relatively static for all intents and purposes. It has limitations imposed upon it by the goddess Mystra, but even Mystra herself believes in consistency. [/B]

I agree that it's static mostly, but there are plenty of variations and fluxes in the weave that it's not considered completely reliable. It's as reliable as a battery found in a drawer - most of the time, it will work, but it possibly doesn't, or it could crack and leak chemicals and damage something. As I noted, even Mythals are living breathing things, and will change characteristics over time.

 

[shadow]

My take on the Realms

I have an unusual take on the Realms. I envision them as a whimsical fairy tale-like setting. Throughout 2e days, the Realms became increasingly "pulpy" as novels and game products portrayed the Realms as sort of a generic, high powered, pulp-fantasy setting. However, the 3e Realms changed that perception for me. The 3e art work makes the Realms a lot more mystical, and a lot less "pulpy". Forgotten civilizations, high magic, a plethora of fantastic races and creatures, gives the Realms an overall "mystical" feel, like that of an old fairy tale. I see the Realms as sort of like Fantasia (From the Neverending Story), a whimsical land where anything can happen.

 

[Nightfall]

*thanks Adlon for the kind words* Btw Darrin, just so you know I'm glad you enjoy FR but Oathbound is still a great little setting too.

 

[jester47]

I find my to points on magic hotly debated. Let me clarify.

The equal and opposite reaction was in reference to the idea that a spell, when completeed, can be reacted to by someone, eventually. Or, if the magic is longer term (i.e. permanent) its nature might change to be the opposite of what originally intended to do. A good example is somone running a wizard through because he just killed that someones friend with a magic missle. Another example is a mythal.

The second point that I was making about magic is that it in no way acts like electricity. Magic if left "on" for to long spontaneously starts to take influence in operation from the surrounding world and changes the nature of what it is powering. Magic wants to be used. This would be equivalent to putting a dog and a magicly powered computer in the same room for 50 years. If you left the "magic" computer on eventually it may start to only work for dogs or not work when dogs are around. This is impossible with electricity. Magic is fickle so it is best not to overuse it.

What happens whenthe magic sewer system starts manifesting water elementals?

As for the constant use of magic in the realms. Yes I would agree that the commoners are not afraid of magic and readily accept its use. However I think that most people also understand the risk, cost and time needed to master it. And they would rather do other things. Furthermore I think the idea that magic is dangerous would be prevalent beyond thier desires to mess with. But we must also consider that the average spellcaster (not counting classes with limited spell ability) make up less than 10% of the population. About a quarter of those are Druids out in the woods somewhere and are hard to find. So about 7% of the population is capable of casting spells. I would say they are common enough to leave a mark but not common enough to completely change society. Besides, with some effects, especially in an overmagiced city, dispel magic in the hands of an evildoer can become very very dangerous. Dependancy on magic make you susceptible to things that can take out the magic. If I were a wizard with an Int of 16, I would highly recommend against overmagicing a city. Besides all of this, I think that most people would have a work ethic. That runs along these lines: "In the time that it takes me to learn how to cast a spell that can do the job, I would have the job done four times over. What use is magic to me?" (remember they have an int of 11 and farm or carry out some trade for a living)

But I need to point out that magic HAS changed the development of society in the realms.

But, I think my argument is that the nature of magic keeps it from becoming as prevalent as electical technology is in our society. To usean electrical device you need to know where the ignition, on switch or whatever it is you use to turn it on and some basic points on usage. Non-item magic i.e. spells require what ammounts to a BA in magic. The analogy would be that you would be required to make your own computers, CD players, etc. This analogy isnot perfect because one could concievably use magic to power such devices. But to go forward with the analogy you would have to make these devices again and again everytime you wanted to use them. Or at least reread the manual.

Now the thing that makes the Realms overtly magical in my mind is the idea of a 5000 year (or more) magical legacy. This shows up in items and "big magic." (mythals and the like) So as a result items of magic are more common than your average fantasy setting. But, not so common to where everyone has one.

I have posted here before the concept of common magic and true magic. Common is where an item emulates one spell levels 0-3. Be it a +1 weapon or a magic hat or whatever. IMC this stuff is all over. True magic is stuff that acts as more than one spell or has a combat or armor bonus of +2 or more. True magic is more rare than common magic.

Keeping all this in mind I see the realms as a place where people are careful around magic as it is somthing that is a two way street. Overdependance on it causes problems. But living without it may be just as bad. However like the book says, it is somthing that is everywhere. So my perception is that a DM should make magic (not really spells but more items and places) have two edges. Make dependance on magic a dangerous undertaking in that it could get undercut easily. Then go for broke, make it big, loud and spectacular. When somthing is magical its MAGICAL! (for better.... or worse.)

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Re: My take on the Realms

I have an unusual take on the Realms. I envision them as a whimsical fairy tale-like setting. Throughout 2e days, the Realms became increasingly "pulpy" as novels and game products portrayed the Realms as sort of a generic, high powered, pulp-fantasy setting. However, the 3e Realms changed that perception for me. The 3e art work makes the Realms a lot more mystical, and a lot less "pulpy". Forgotten civilizations, high magic, a plethora of fantastic races and creatures, gives the Realms an overall "mystical" feel, like that of an old fairy tale. I see the Realms as sort of like Fantasia (From the Neverending Story), a whimsical land where anything can happen.

But never forget the GRIT! Never! I have what I call my "filter." When I run a camapign I run it through the filter. If I am using a setting I work hard to incorperate canon and make it work for me. Anything that is not logical as a result (this is rare) I axe. The results I get are ussually really good.

My filter is based off of (here we go again) the scenery of the Time of Fables from Time Bandits, the scenery from the D&D cartoon, the rooms of Dragon'slair, Elements from the last unicorn and Giant Bones. The darkness and images of the original Conan stories, Lhankmar, and the weirdness of Lovecraft and Moorcock.

Imagine the realms through THAT filter. I love the fact that there are more races than you can shake a stick at in the realms (more coming in the mail soon!) and with that filter you get a good idea of what I try to make my realms like. So yeah, its fairy tale, but very dark fairy tale. In my realms, Micky the wererat got actively drowned by the broomsticks he created when messing with the sorcerers book.

Aaron.