D&D 5E Free 60+ page Guide to Sword & Sorcery for 5E D&D

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

This is an example where the structure of level progression changes. (And yes, I agree this is likely much more invasive measures than what XOth intends with the product of this particular thread).

Whilst the (optional) wound tracker is a departure from standard 5e, it’s done in a way that slots into the existing rules with very little extra adjustment. It’s effectively a new condition, working in the same cumulative way exhaustion does. But Importantly the levelling and Hit-point progression remains inline with 5e (which is what I meant by structure of level progression). The recommended play is only going to 10th level. There are options for progressing beyond that if you wish.

As an optional condition the wound tracker is very easy for players who don’t want to use it to ignore, but it does help to shape the character of the different setting.

Games like Trudvang 5e, Beowulf, and AIME, are really good examples of how you can you turn 5e into a genre appropriate game, but still keep the basic 5e expectations IMO.

To be clear I’m not saying the Trudvang wound tracker is necessarily appropriate for this game. Though it does a good job of modelling combat fatigue (without graphic limb loss, and permanent injuries).

 

[CapnZapp]

Whilst the (optional) wound tracker is a departure from standard 5e, it’s done in a way that slots into the existing rules with very little extra adjustment. It’s effectively a new condition, working in the same cumulative way exhaustion does. But Importantly the levelling and Hit-point progression remains inline with 5e (which is what I meant by structure of level progression). The recommended play is only going to 10th level. There are options for progressing beyond that if you wish.

As an optional condition the wound tracker is very easy for players who don’t want to use it to ignore, but it does help to shape the character of the different setting.

Games like Trudvang 5e, Beowulf, and AIME, are really good examples of how you can you turn 5e into a genre appropriate game, but still keep the basic 5e expectations IMO.

To be clear I’m not saying the Trudvang wound tracker is necessarily appropriate for this game. Though it does a good job of modelling combat fatigue (without graphic limb loss, and permanent injuries).

It would be helpful to know exactly what you're talking about. Is the following what you mean by Trudvang's "wound tracker"?

Assuming "yes", I would note this is reminiscent of games such as Hârnmaster. Getting injured makes you worse at fighting, which makes you more likely to be further injured, which makes you even worse at fighting etc. Or, in layman's terms the perhaps unfair term "spiral of death".
As for my feedback to the specific rule: too complicated and featuring exactly the kind of -1's and -3's D&D 5E don't do. Consider the much more simple "you're fine until you're below 1/3rd maximum health. When you're below 1/3rd maximum health all rolls, checks and saves are made with disadvantage" instead.

While mechanisms like this is probably a simple way to implement quasi-realistic combat, and while I'm not familiar with Trudvang's specific nuance of fantasy, I do know there's a reason Hârnmaster used it, I would argue it is out of place in a Sword and Sorcery setting.

The way D&D does not impose any penalties on you until you actually drop is what I would call the perfect fit for S&S games.

While I am fully aware many people like their games to be grim and gritty, I would still like to argue that's a different genre than S&S. Adjacent, but technically separate, in that S&S does not require grim & gritty.

More relevant to this discussion, however, is that Xoth clearly isn't positioning the 5E Player’s Guide to the World of Xoth as an especially gritty game.

So I'd like to remind y'all of why we're having this discussion in the first place - the inclusion of an instant death rule in the Player's Guide. This implementation is not very different from the official massive damage rule in that it doesn't allow kill shots to characters with lots of hit points, only characters with few. (The difference is that it at least triggers off current hp rather than maximum hp - the core rule means you can basically forget about it once you're off the first few levels altogether, not a terribly functional implementation imo.)

Then I argued neither the PHB nor the Xoth rule does what it says on the tin, since you can't be instakilled while having lots of hit points. I illustrated with a rule that affects characters equally regardless of how many hit points they have.

Then I argued no instakill rule is appropriate for S&S, or at least the Xoth variety of S&S, since a game based on this genre features heavy combat, and its heroes don't die to random arrows to the knee.

Now I'm arguing that at least for purposes of this thread we shouldn't assume grim and gritty Sword and Sorcery, even though that in itself is a mighty fine genre.

What I'm suggesting instead is two things:

• Make heroes have less big hp buffers so heroes aren't "too far out", meaning too far removed from the possibility of death. Extending the "sweet spot" to higher (and lower?) levels
• Refocus discussion from grim and gritty physical combat to instead "grim and gritty" magical spellcasting

Cheers

 

[CapnZapp]

This is an example where the structure of level progression changes.

I should add that when you first started discussing wound trackers, I thought about games with abstract wound levels instead of hit points. (In case I came across as not getting your point)

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

It would be helpful to know exactly what you're talking about. Is the following what you mean by Trudvang's "wound tracker"?

View attachment 133305

Assuming "yes", I would note this is reminiscent of games such as Hârnmaster. Getting injured makes you worse at fighting, which makes you more likely to be further injured, which makes you even worse at fighting etc. Or, in layman's terms the perhaps unfair term "spiral of death".
As for my feedback to the specific rule: too complicated and featuring exactly the kind of -1's and -3's D&D 5E don't do. Consider the much more simple "you're fine until you're below 1/3rd maximum health. When you're below 1/3rd maximum health all rolls, checks and saves are made with disadvantage" instead.

While mechanisms like this is probably a simple way to implement quasi-realistic combat, and while I'm not familiar with Trudvang's specific nuance of fantasy, I do know there's a reason Hârnmaster used it, I would argue it is out of place in a Sword and Sorcery setting.

The way D&D does not impose any penalties on you until you actually drop is what I would call the perfect fit for S&S games.

While I am fully aware many people like their games to be grim and gritty, I would still like to argue that's a different genre than S&S. Adjacent, but technically separate, in that S&S does not require grim & gritty.

More relevant to this discussion, however, is that Xoth clearly isn't positioning the 5E Player’s Guide to the World of Xoth as an especially gritty game.

So I'd like to remind y'all of why we're having this discussion in the first place - the inclusion of an instant death rule in the Player's Guide. This implementation is not very different from the official massive damage rule in that it doesn't allow kill shots to characters with lots of hit points, only characters with few. (The difference is that it at least triggers off current hp rather than maximum hp - the core rule means you can basically forget about it once you're off the first few levels altogether, not a terribly functional implementation imo.)

Then I argued neither the PHB nor the Xoth rule does what it says on the tin, since you can't be instakilled while having lots of hit points. I illustrated with a rule that affects characters equally regardless of how many hit points they have.

Then I argued no instakill rule is appropriate for S&S, or at least the Xoth variety of S&S, since a game based on this genre features heavy combat, and its heroes don't die to random arrows to the knee.

Now I'm arguing that at least for purposes of this thread we shouldn't assume grim and gritty Sword and Sorcery, even though that in itself is a mighty fine genre.

What I'm suggesting instead is two things:

• Make heroes have less big hp buffers so heroes aren't "too far out", meaning too far removed from the possibility of death. Extending the "sweet spot" to higher (and lower?) levels
• Refocus discussion from grim and gritty physical combat to instead "grim and gritty" magical spellcasting

Cheers

That’s the orginal bespoke Trudvang Chronicles example you have there. The 5e version (currently in beta) looks like this, I’ve taken this from the freely available sample adventure WurmsTongue, which was on their website, but may have been removed now?

Once again I’m not advocating using this for Xoth, I agree I think it’s not entirely reflective of S&S. It’s much grittier. But ideas may spring from it.
With the wound Tracker Inspiration (called Raud) can move you one step up the wound tracker. You have a maximum of 2 inspiration at the start of each game. 2 remains the cap. Inspiration still works in the standard way as well. Some class abilities and healing also move you a step up on the wound tracker.

Games like Beowulf and Trudvang play with the inspiration mechanic and expand on it from 5e. I could see inspiration being used in innovative ways in Xoth too, not just for adv. For example triggering an exceptional critical as I mentioned originally.

Magic certainly needs a think and I like your suggestions there. To my mind it’s not a player facing thing in S&S, but this is D&D so almost certainly should be allowed for. It needs consequences to be feared as you said.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

That’s the orginal bespoke Trudvang Chronicles example you have there. The 5e version (currently in beta) looks like this, I’ve taken this from the freely available sample adventure WurmsTongue, which was on their website, but may have been removed now?

View attachment 133313View attachment 133314
Once again I’m not advocating using this for Xoth, I agree I think it’s not entirely reflective of S&S. It’s much grittier. But ideas may spring from it.
Inspiration (called Raud) can move you one step up the wound tracker. You have a maximum of 2 inspiration. It also works in the standard advantage way. Some class abilities and healing also move you a step on the wound tracker.
Games like Beowulf and Trudvang play with the inspiration mechanic and expand on it from 5e. I could see inspiration being used in innovative ways in Xoth too, not just for adv. For example triggering an exceptional critical as I mentioned originally.

Magic certainly needs a think and I like your suggestions there. To my mind it’s not a player facing thing in S&S, but this is D&D so almost certainly should be allowed for. It needs consequences to be feared as you said.

Riffing off of the TA wound Tracker, and Exhaustion tracker, you could develop a new one specifically for the cumulative consequences of using Sorcery.

 

[xoth.publishing]

I don't immediately understand if you gain +1 to flanking on top of advantage or in place of it. Anyway, it's minor minutiae that has nothing to do with S&S so I would not add it to this Player's Guide

It does what it says, nothing more: You gain +1 to attack rolls when flanking.

the core rule already is "long rest gives all hp back"? Anyhoo, I don't like how this forces the GM to either deny long rests altogether, or wipe the slate clean. When I run 5E I have long rests give back no hit points but all healing surges.

It doesn't say "hit points", it says "Hit Dice" (aka what you call "healing surges", which is a 4E term I believe...). "A long rest restores all Hit Dice (not just half your Hit Dice as per the standard rules)." Because it's too fiddly to keep track of Hit Dice otherwise.

 

[xoth.publishing]

Do note I'm assuming you'd be alright with still playing the Xoth campaign at higher level than 8 - that the fighter should reach 70 hp at level 11 or level 14 or wherever your actual pain threshold is. (Note: If what you're really saying is instead "the campaign should end at 8th level and its fine for characters to have the core amount of hit points" then obviously we're discussing different things! )

I'm not saying the campaign should end at a certain level, I'm just saying the sweet spot is below level 10. Statistics (from D&D Beyond and elsewhere) show that most campaigns tend to end before getting into the really high levels anyway... possibly because high-level D&D (and Pathfinder!) is a complex, time-consuming mess.

Better to focus on domain management, armies and battles, diplomacy, etc in such high-level campaigns, rather than dungeon-crawling.

 

[xoth.publishing]

Another way of implementing parity could be "if you roll even on your damage die". Then 50% of all critical hits kill the foe, regardless of weapon. Or you could (as already stated) forget about the weapon die entirely. "If you crit, roll a second d20. 16 or higher means an instakill." results in 25% of all crits kill the opponent, for instance.

Here's a variant for your consideration:

Deadly Critical: When you score a critical hit against an opponent, roll another d20. If you roll a natural 20 on this second roll, the opponent's hit point total is instantly reduced to zero. For player characters, this means they must start rolling death saves. For NPCs and monsters, it usually means instant death; the GM may rule that certain monsters are immune [you will not be able to insta-kill Great Cthulhu with a lucky die roll]. If you are using the rule where the opponent can sacrifice a weapon or shield to negate the critical hit, the decision must be taken before the second d20 is rolled.

This rule is simple (in the spirit of 5E), applies equally to all (so even high-level characters will feel a little worried), yet won't happen very often, and won't instakill PCs (but rather bring them to zero hit points). Also, it's fun to roll dice, and crits become more interesting.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Here's a variant for your consideration:

Deadly Critical: When you score a critical hit against an opponent, roll another d20. If you roll a natural 20 on this second roll, the opponent's hit point total is instantly reduced to zero. For player characters, this means they must start rolling death saves. For NPCs and monsters, it usually means instant death; the GM may rule that certain monsters are immune [you will not be able to insta-kill Great Cthulhu with a lucky die roll]. If you are using the rule where the opponent can sacrifice a weapon or shield to negate the critical hit, the decision must be taken before the second d20 is rolled.

This rule is simple (in the spirit of 5E), applies equally to all (so even high-level characters will feel a little worried), yet won't happen very often, and won't instakill PCs (but rather bring them to zero hit points). Also, it's fun to roll dice, and crits become more interesting.

I really like that. It makes combat more exciting and dangerous. It’s simple and elegantly done. Immediately changes the tone and atmosphere of the game.

Also it will interact with the Assassin abilities very nicely, particularly when they have an auto crit.

Yep, that does it for me. Congrats that’s great.

 

[cbwjm]

Here's a variant for your consideration:

Deadly Critical: When you score a critical hit against an opponent, roll another d20. If you roll a natural 20 on this second roll, the opponent's hit point total is instantly reduced to zero. For player characters, this means they must start rolling death saves. For NPCs and monsters, it usually means instant death; the GM may rule that certain monsters are immune [you will not be able to insta-kill Great Cthulhu with a lucky die roll]. If you are using the rule where the opponent can sacrifice a weapon or shield to negate the critical hit, the decision must be taken before the second d20 is rolled.

This rule is simple (in the spirit of 5E), applies equally to all (so even high-level characters will feel a little worried), yet won't happen very often, and won't instakill PCs (but rather bring them to zero hit points). Also, it's fun to roll dice, and crits become more interesting.

Maybe change the second roll to be "if this is also a critical hit" to work with the expanded critical hit range of the champion.