Freedom of Movement underwater?

[mvincent]

"A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed..."

You believe this statement concludes that "normal fly speed through water is exactly 0"? Do you understand why someone may not?

unless the OP actually cares about an answer from whatever plane the quote discusses

I'll ask him then: are you curious how movement is treated on the elemental plane of water?

If you're aware that a really long thread exists discussing this, then you should bring it to the attention of the OP, who may not be aware of it.

Fair enough: here and here.

 

[Infiniti2000]

There is a problem with that. The table indicates that walking along the ground you move at 1/2 movement, swimming you move at 1/4 movement, with a swim speed you move at normal movement, and with freedom of movement you move at normal movement. This implies to me full movement rate while swimming, since it makes no caveat for a particular mode as expressed in footnote 3 of said table.

It implies to me exactly what it says. Normal. When 'walking' you move at 'walk' speed, which would be full normal land speed. When swimming, you move at swim speed, which is your swim speed if you have one, or your swim speed a calculated from your land speed based on the Swim skill. That's normal. Any other option would be abnormal. Footnote 3 is irrelevant unless you think all of the other columns apply (i.e. you cannot choose two rows at the same time).

To Cabled, I don't know what ThirdWizard's response means, but I also don't know how to reply to your statement or if you expect one. I obviously disagree that any of those methods can be used underwater.

You believe this statement concludes that "normal fly speed through water is exactly 0"?

Yes, unequivocally.

Do you understand why someone may not?

Outside of the plane of water, no. I think that there is as much basis for allowing a fish affected by FoM to swim through the air (out of the water) as there is for allowing a bird affected by FoM to fly through the water.

I hate the rule in the plane of water, but if you want to hang your hat on that as a definitive ruling for the material plane, then I will concede the point.

 

[frankthedm]

Never mind

 

[ThirdWizard]

It implies to me exactly what it says. Normal. When 'walking' you move at 'walk' speed, which would be full normal land speed. When swimming, you move at swim speed, which is your swim speed if you have one, or your swim speed a calculated from your land speed based on the Swim skill. That's normal. Any other option would be abnormal. Footnote 3 is irrelevant unless you think all of the other columns apply (i.e. you cannot choose two rows at the same time).

Take a look at the table:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#aquaticTerrain

"Successful Swim check" is not listed as "normal" because your normal movement is 1/4 your land speed. It is listed at quarter or half. If it were to be interpreted as you say, then it would also say "normal" under "Successful Swim check."

So according to the table: When you make a swim check what is your speed? 1/4 or 1/2. What's your normal speed with freedom of movement? Normal.

Surely those are not the same speed.

 

[mvincent]

Yes, unequivocally.

Outside of the plane of water, no.

To clarify: you believe that the text "A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed" concludes that "normal fly speed through water is exactly 0", and you cannot understand why someone might not reach that same conclusion (even though the quoted text does not address speeds through media other than air).

It seems the same reasoning could be used to conclude that one could not burrow through snow or jello, or swim through media other than water.

 

[Korak]

To clarify: you believe that the text "A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed" concludes that "normal fly speed through water is exactly 0", and you cannot understand why someone might not reach that same conclusion (even though the quoted text does not address speeds through media other than air).

It seems the same reasoning could be used to conclude that one could not burrow through snow or jello, or swim through media other than water.

Infiniti, pardon if I misrepresent your opinion on the matter, but iirc, you and I were of similar mind on the earlier thread.

Basically, we believe the most sensible interpretation of the movement rules presented in the core rules is as follows:

The particular motions and movements of a creatures limbs are irrelevant in determining what form of movement is being used. Some creatures move with no limbs at all. What determines the movement mode to apply is the environment being moved through/against.

A creature moving along a more or less horizontal solid surface is using land speed (regardless of what liquid or gas is surrounding the rest of his body, although some liquids or very thick gas might apply penalties to the base land speed)

A creature moving along a vertical surface and in contact with the surface is using a climb speed (regardless of what liquid or gas is surrounding the rest of his body, although some liquids or very thick gas might apply penalties to the base climb speed)

A creature moving in a liquid and not touching a solid surface is using a swim speed.

A creature moving in a gas and not touching a solid surface is using a fly speed.

A creature moving in a semisolid is using a burrow speed.

Lastly, with the exception of swimming and climbing, which may be done via skill checks, a creature may not move using a speed which is not defined for it's creature type, unless it gains that form of movement through another means. e.g. if you are a bison and have no defined burrow speed, then you may not move through semi-solids unless some effect bestows a burrow speed on you.

 

[mvincent]

we believe the most sensible interpretation of the movement rules presented in the core rules is as follows

Eloquently put. I agree that your interpretation is completely reasonable (but indeed, I did so even before your post). What I was marveling at is someone considering this not open to some interpretation, and unable to understand why someone* might have an alternate interpretation.

* Those people being the writers

 

[Korak]

Eloquently put. I agree that your interpretation is completely reasonable (but indeed, I did so even before your post). What I was marveling at is someone considering this not open to some interpretation, and unable to understand why someone* might have an alternate interpretation.

* Those people being the writers

I'll speak only for myself this time.

Your post is itself evidence that someone else has an alternate interpretation. I do not deny the existence of your post. Complete the syllogism at your leisure.

 

[mvincent]

Your post is itself evidence that someone else has an alternate interpretation.

Thank you for the credit, but I do not believe someone posting here is itself evidence that something is "open to interpretation" (unless you define it more loosely than I do).

Indeed, I personally have no preference on the issue. However, I try to play "by the book" (and by this I mean using the rules, the Rules as Intended, canon, historical precedence, and the FAQ). I try to do this as a service to my players... i.e. I believe such guidelines are mostly for their benefit, since as the DM I can pretty much do as I please anway.

On this issue, I have statements from the 3.0 FAQ, the Manual of the Planes, and from earlier editions of D&D. I make use of such statements not because they are my preference, but for verisimilitude. If there are discrepancies in the statements, I have confidence in my DM'ing abilities to resolve them. If they actually contradict a rule (that did not seem open to interpretation), I would likely not follow them.

Example: if Storm-wrack specifically addressed this issue, I would instead follow the guidelines given there (whatever they may be).

 

[Infiniti2000]

So according to the table: When you make a swim check what is your speed? 1/4 or 1/2. What's your normal speed with freedom of movement? Normal.

Surely those are not the same speed.

Why not?

This begs the question, however. What is your method of movement in water while under the effects of FoM if you have no other speeds than Land? If you have all modes of movement possible, then which can you use in water/air/underground/land/climbing? Can you use a fly speed while climbing?

I don't think you're making a judgment based on the rules of movement in water. For example, I don't agree that a hydra with expeditious retreat and FoM would swim so much faster than a hydra with expeditious retreat or FoM.

To clarify: you believe that the text "A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed" concludes that "normal fly speed through water is exactly 0", and you cannot understand why someone might not reach that same conclusion (even though the quoted text does not address speeds through media other than air)

It would probably be more technically accurate to say "-" instead of "0". There's a difference in the rules. And, it be clear, I can understand why, I just don't agree with it.

It seems the same reasoning could be used to conclude that one could not burrow through snow or jello, or swim through media other than water.

Correct. The caveat in this straw man, however, is that for any other medium not covered in the rules, we (as DMs) need to drum up some rules to handle it. If there were a very-air-like-substance, would I just use the flying rules? Probably. If it were a little different, I might induce some modifiers, or whatever. However, flying is clearly not swimming. There is absolutely no gray area at all. You cannot 'fly' in water, period, unless there is some sort of transmutation or whatever that allows it.

Now, I believe in the other thread (I'm not gonna reread it to verify) we talked about some real-life birds using their wings in the water, but as I said before that should be considered as a swim speed, not actually flying.