Frenzied Bezerker BBEG TPK

Infiniti2000 · Jul 27, 2006

Wasn't the Kool-Aid man a frenzied berserker?

Oh, yeah!

Votan · Jul 27, 2006

Spatula said:
Sounds like a BBEG encounter to me (CR-wise).

If we accept EL 12 as a good guess for the encounter (the antimagic beholder definitely addes at least +1 EL to an EL 10 base encounter and, plus traps I think you could argue EL 13 or even more given how bad it is to not use magic versus deathless frenzy) then it is either EL +4 or EL +5 for the party (which should see encounters of EL 7 or 8.

From DMG:

EL +1 to +4 (notice we are on the high end) is described as: Very difficult. On e PC might very well die. The encounter level is higher than the party level. This type of encounter may seem more dangerous than an overpowering one, because it is not immediately obvious to the players that the PCs should flee.

EL +5: Overpowering. The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose.

Now, if the party is completely fresh, pumped up with information and ready to rock and roll then they might take an encounter like this with sheer guts. But if they had to fight their way in, have lost spells, options and hit points then this is a death trap. If the dungeon does not allow "resting at will" and "refreshes between visits" then hitting the BBEG completely frsh may not be an option.

Now, if you allow very high point buy, gesalt characters or other such things you might be able to take on such encounters but that is because the true EL of the party is actually one or two higher than the 25 point buy core class baseline for the game.

I will also note that a Barbarian 10 could have stood in thematically and caused way less problems.

lukelightning · Jul 27, 2006

This encounter shows the limit of the EL system; I'd say that given the circumstances the encounter is much deadlier than the EL would suggest. Perhaps out in the open where the PCs could flee and maneuver out of the cone the encounter may be appropriate.

Spatula · Jul 28, 2006

dvvega was complaing about a "CR 11 or CR 12" encounter for a "strong for their level" party of 7th & 8th level. The FB is stupid and broken and shouldn't have been used, but there was nothing wrong with the level of the encounter.

Christian · Jul 28, 2006

Did the OP ever explain how a half-orc qualified for FB before 9th level?

(Curiosity is killing me ...)

moritheil · Jul 28, 2006

lukelightning said:
Everyone knows the best way to stop a frenzied berzerker is with Hostess brand Fruit Pies.

You, sir, are thinking of Sorcerer's Fruit Pies!

moritheil · Jul 28, 2006

Malum said:
The basics: It was a war of attrition. The players had a set amount of hit points vs. the FB who had unlimited hit points.

This is by far the funniest quote I have seen on the boards in a long, long time.

I do want to point something out to all the posters who keep saying that the AMF beholder should increase EL by X amount: a beholder increases the EL as much as a creature of its CR does. Aside from that, per the rules, situational modifiers do not increase EL. DMs are urged to give out 25-30% more XP when putting the players in a nasty situation, but the Book of Traps, Challenges, and Puzzles specifically says that situations do not change EL.

If that doesn't sound satisfactory, try this on for size: aside from giving it favorable encounter situations, how else would you take into account the enormous intelligence of a beholder, which presumably makes it better than normal at tactics?

shilsen · Jul 28, 2006

Question said:
I dont think an encounter of CR 12+ for a level 7/8 party is a BBEG encounter....

What's your definition of a BBEG encounter? I couldn't ever use a EL 12 encounter on a 7-8 lvl party because I'd TPK them almost every time.

Question · Jul 28, 2006

shilsen said:
What's your definition of a BBEG encounter? I couldn't ever use a EL 12 encounter on a 7-8 lvl party because I'd TPK them almost every time.

I suppose my definition of BBEG is a BBEG that is reasonably possible to defeat. Otherwise its a TPK.