Friends, Gamers, Editors, Lend Me Your Ears! (New Rules)

[GMMichael]

I was wondering, though, what does progress look like in the fiction? Does achieving progress reframe the scene in some way? Does it change what actions and abilities might be used?

I'll probably expand the Non-Combat Conflict section to better answer these questions. But since it's the chassis that combat is built on, I don't want to build the same car twice.

Progress is about reframing the scene. The fiction and the extended conflict move in tandem. The Guide asks for a contest because something's about to change. What that is is implied by the scene. The PC makes a suggestion on it, and the GM makes it official. So the actions/abilities might change if the scene calls for it, or they might remain the same. Agent Smith attempts to get the codes to Zion from Morpheus with three actions: drugging Morpheus, presenting his sob story, and physically threatening him. Morpheus chooses to take the same action three times in a row: go to your happy place. He could talk back or attempt to break the cuffs again. Whichever side hits max progress first wins.

Different ways of answering these questions are found in HeroWars extended contests (the original version - the initial ability used determines the action points available; but subsequent declared abilities affect the difficulty of checks), 4e D&D Skill Challenges (the number of successes needed is independent of the skill used, but the skill chosen may affect the difficulty and will affect the fiction and hence subsequent skill choices - this is made even clearer in the DMG2 than in the DMG) and In A Wicked Age (the abilities to be used are set from the start, but the actions declared affect the fiction that is unfolding).

It's not clear how Modos answers these questions.

Modos RPG doesn't answer those questions because it's not as rigid as those systems. It's more about the role-play, less about the game. I'll try to make that more clear in the revised section.

@TiQuinn, you make good points, and I hope to get to them soon.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Possibilities are endless, so there's no table. And I'm trying to keep the examples short, since this work's purpose is to summarize Modos 2.

That's better, but for many it will b GM-determined ("I'm running a hard sf game") and some it will come from the players. Maybe that doesn't worry you.

Sometimes the results will Tie, which can then be rerolled or treated as a neutral result.

This, to me, is worse. A tie should be the most interesting outcome, not something to be dodged. If the system can't handle that, then it should be revised. Maybe a tie is "Win with a cost", or "both sides achieve their ends". Reroll is weak.

Whatever the result of your contest, you should have an idea of what happens next so you can help the Guide continue the story.
For example, you want (your character) to balance a crystal on an art display where it belongs, because you just accidentally knocked it over. The Guide says, "if you do it fast enough, the docent won't notice that you're damaging the art. Roll a physical contest." You roll a d20 and get 4! The Guide rolls against you and says, "Con. What happens?" You reply, "I put the crystal back in place, and quickly pose like I'm appreciating the art. But I did it too fast, so the crystal falls again and clinks around on the floor."
[/SPOILER]
I figured it would be simpler here to just shorten the Tie, and add more example to the example

This is better. A second example involving combat would help.

Thanks! I added some perk examples. I'm not sure if I want to bullet-point them or sidebar. Or . . . ?

either is fine.

Spoiler: Sample Perks

Some typical perks are: health boost (increases your maximum physical damage by four points), improved armor (your choice of armor provides protection of the next higher die type), and small size (you can use an action to treat one close range opponent as though it's at short range, until that opponent uses an action to negate the benefit).

This doesn't give the precision I would like, but it does show that I was misnunderstanding what a perk is. These examples are very different from the Linguist perk mentioned in the example, which if not representative is misleading.

Revised to "standard polyhedral dice."

better.

I could break that sentence out, I guess. Oversized quote? My hope is that the now-revised example draws more attention to the benefits of gaining a level. Here's that:

Spoiler: Level Up Demo

For example, last session, you and your friends defeated the endboss, Super-Krox. Your campaign grants a character level for each endboss defeated, so it's time to level up from level 2 to level 3. You add a point to your physical score, decide to branch out from your primary skill of Archery (2) and put a skill point in Repair (1) . . .

Better.

Yes, you can choose to halfmax every roll. The guide can roll everything against you if things get boring. This is sort of the opposite of "players make all the rolls." Alternately, the Guide can halfmax everything against you too, because some disparities in bonuses aren't really worth rolling. E.g. if you'd win a contest 75% of the time anyway, it might be more interesting for everyone involved to focus on your narrative choices and not the numbers popping up on dice.

This feels unsatisfactory in play, but perhaps your experience makes it different.
I can see an option to spend an action to do things that round "carefully" in which any rolls that turn (i.e. with the other two actions) get to halfmax. But fo reach roll to be either halfmaxed or not, by player choice, feels arbitrary to me.

There's no Critical Miss rule. Is that what you meant by "big losses?" There are similar situations inherent in the rules, though.

I think perhaps I wanted critical fails added.

 

[GMMichael]

Here’s the section that baffled me:
“An extended conflict begins when the Guide calls for an Initiative Contest, and some campaigns have special code words to add to the mood and see if you’re paying attention!”

What does that mean? Why do I need to know about the exception before you’ve even described the mechanic? It has no context.

Truth. How does this look?

Spoiler: Revised Initiative

An extended conflict begins when the Guide calls for an Initiative Contest. This is a d20 roll plus whichever attribute bonus your character was using when conflict began - it's your choice. After rolling, players take turns in order of highest initiative contest to lowest. Your initiative contest also determines the priority of your actions. When players announce actions at the same time (see Reactions), the actions of players with higher initiative contests occur before those with lower contests.

You then say the player can act at any time…then why have the initiative roll? Just for ties?

You can combine actions on your turn.

You haven’t described an action. I still don’t really know what basic things my character can do yet and you’re already describing how I can combine actions? Casting a magic spell apparently takes more than one action. Why? This is a generic system so what if the game is a sci-fi space opera with no spells? I still don’t know what kind of actions require multiple actions.

I moved Actions above Turns. I was probably thinking that since initiative contests determine turn order, that turns should come next

Spoiler: Using Actions, On Your Turn

Using Actions (004, 005, 200, 202, 205)
You start each round with three actions to use, and you lose them at the end of the round, so use them wisely! Attacks, defenses, and posture changes (see Posture section) are the most common actions. The campaign theme or the Guide's action list will provide many more choices of what you can do with an action. An attack is an action with a rules-related benefit like causing damage or inflicting a difficulty penalty on your opponent. Defenses are actions that negate certain kinds of attacks, but you must roll a Pro against the attack's contest to negate it. You can take actions that are not on the action list; just tell your Guide what you want to do. The Guide will tell you if you need to use more than one action for your idea. If it's very fast or simple, the Guide can call it a Non-Action and let you do it for free.

On Your Turn (203, 204, 213)
When your turn begins, you are called the Initiating Character, and you get two benefits over the other characters in combat. One, you initiate the actions, which means that all other characters must wait to act until you do. The initiating character's actions take priority over all others, regardless of your initiative contest. This means, for example . . .

The Guide will tell you if your idea requires more than one action.

Okay, take away the arbitrariness of that from a player’s perspective, how do I as the GM decide whether something takes one action, or two actions, or all three actions?

After revising Actions, there's more emphasis on what counts as an action. As in, they're attacks, defenses, or posture changes, and that more choices are usually provided. The GM, if unsure, can refer to a module's action list to see what else counts as an action, and use those ideas as a way to measure new actions.

Getting started - The rules really put a lot of weight on the GM to decide how the game will work without really giving them all of the decision points. Leveling is up to the GM. Difficulty contests are up to the GM. Whether a player’s idea takes multiple actions…up to the GM. Results of a contest roll…up to the GM. There’s no framework there that actually makes the GMs job easier.

A lot of these answers will come from other modules: how to level, how difficult some things are, what certain contests mean. The framework's there, but not the specifics. I did a little rewriting to better show that the PC is an important, creative part of the process; it's not all on the Guide's shoulders.

Whatever the result of your contest, you should have an idea of what the result means - what happens - so you can help the Guide continue the story.

This process is called Simple Conflict, and it amounts to a back-and-forth discussion between the PCs and the Guide, shaped by the contests you roll, to create the tales of your adventure.

In your dogfight example, what does it mean “You make the dogfight look easy?” I mean, that’s not giving the GM information about how to scale combat. Does the player blow up the Greywing? Wound it? Chase it away? Outrun it? Immobilize it? I know…I know…it’s up to the GM. But also from a player’s POV, I have no idea if that dogfight is a life or death battle or a little fight that I can shake off if the dice don’t go my way.

I changed "pilot will best you" to "pilot will engage and outmaneuver you," just to trim that ambiguity a bit. Combat could ensue, but the example Guide doesn't want to force a fight. The PC can make the suggestion for blowing up/chasing/immobilizing. Do you think the example PC should respond at the end of the paragraph (in light of the above edits)?

Skills - What are the possible skills? You mention Linguist, Armed, Archery, Archeology, and these are fine, but some skills are going to be more useful than others. What if I just create a skill called Armed Combat and decide that covers any weapon I can get my hands on? Okay. I’ve now created a skill that covers Rocks, Sticks, Slings, Archery, Swords, Guns, Laser Rifles, Lightsabers, and Rocket Launchers.

I added another mention of "choose from module list," since a skill list is a really good thing for a module to have. Armed Combat can be, and is, a valid skill list item, but it definitely is more valid in some campaign themes than others.

You're right about the rules taking off too fast. I hope my edits are on the right track - I might be pretty close to posting a full revised version soon. Some of your concerns (and maybe others') probably make more sense when you realize that this document should stand on its own, but its purpose is to provide the foundation for more complex games . . . games with skill lists, action lists (which can include combined actions), perk lists, etc. It can't be a modular hub if it's too specialized.

 

[GMMichael]

Maybe it's not worth a thousand words, but does this make the contest look like an easy concept?

I revised the Spoilers in the OP, and added Starting Your Character Sheet, which talks about the Character Concept, Goal, Flaw, and the Average Person rule.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

That picture baffles me. My mind tries to interpret over under and shapes and ... it is of no help.

OVERALL =

- I see a few too many edge-cases for points, situations, abilities. The core mechanic is not doing enough heavy lifting and is requiring too many bumps, geek ups, extras.

Stuff like this ung... edge case... =

If your contest result (or "contest" for short) is below 1, it's a Con no matter what the Guide'scontest is. To help avoid rolling too low, or just to speed up some rolls, you can Halfmax any rollbefore you roll it. When you halfmax a roll, you take half of the maximum result on the die as yourroll.

- The TIE result on a roll should be phrased as "success with complications". That makes it easier on GM as they let the game move on with success, but they also get to add a complicating element and all you need to do is give a short list of suggested complications. This also takes stress of the system for players begging bonuses for what amounts to a rather unfun result anyway.

- Defensive Posture = you had a great idea and lost it with ranges. By making Defensive posture a range value, you are really just creating two words for "im at short range". Get rid of the range and just make it an increased TN or penalty to anyone attacking someone in a defensive posture/position. This simplifies things for players who "just want to duck and hide for a bit" and makes the rules less muddy with conditional ranges.

 

[GMMichael]

- The TIE result on a roll should be phrased as "success with complications". That makes it easier on GM as they let the game move on with success, but they also get to add a complicating element and all you need to do is give a short list of suggested complications. This also takes stress of the system for players begging bonuses for what amounts to a rather unfun result anyway.

You're right - no one wants to beg for an unfun result. But consider the Tie from a Powered by the Apocalypse perspective, if you will. Even when a contest comes up, something always happens in the fiction. There's no "you fail, next turn," or "you tied, roll again." A Con is like a Hard Move, and the Tie can be really interesting - why did neither side come out the winner? Why are both sides at a stalemate?

There are some rules to pick at, though: attacks and defenses don't leave room for Ties. A defense negates an attack. Which is why "reroll" is one of the suggested outcomes.

- Defensive Posture = you had a great idea and lost it with ranges. By making Defensive posture a range value, you are really just creating two words for "im at short range". Get rid of the range and just make it an increased TN or penalty to anyone attacking someone in a defensive posture/position. This simplifies things for players who "just want to duck and hide for a bit" and makes the rules less muddy with conditional ranges.

I'd love to simplify that, but I'm not sure how to differentiate projectile weapons from direct-contact weapons if there's no range. I guess a sword and bow could both just be "d8 weapons," but that runs into unfun territory, no? I feel the need to note here that the range rule(s) are part of the Combat module, which can be added to Extended Conflict, but that's not a requirement.

That picture baffles me. My mind tries to interpret over under and shapes and ... it is of no help.

I thought about putting the words within the icons. Would that make more sense? I could remove the icons, but then we'd just be back to reading the rules, and not really seeing them.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

You're right - no one wants to beg for an unfun result. But consider the Tie from a Powered by the Apocalypse perspective, if you will. Even when a contest comes up, something always happens in the fiction. There's no "you fail, next turn," or "you tied, roll again." A Con is like a Hard Move, and the Tie can be really interesting - why did neither side come out the winner? Why are both sides at a stalemate?

Good point! I personally would still stick to success with complications, and one of the complication suggestions would be to handle "what interesting thing happens when neither side wins" or "what interesting thing comes up in a stalemate".

But making it a overall success with complications you can do as you suggest, handle ties/nulls. But if the players/GM want, there is also room in the rules for "you did it and here is how things went pear shaped from it." and many other options. By taking the stress off the GM to carte-blanche choose the whole result, you are just making it quicker and easier to come to any given resolution. And letting the player succeed in some way as the core of that result wont hinder things like ties or nulls.
just my 2c. otherwise yes, I agree with you there.

There are some rules to pick at, though: attacks and defenses don't leave room for Ties. A defense negates an attack. Which is why "reroll" is one of the suggested outcomes.

Sure, and that is combat. Combat is one of the few "mini games" within most rpgs where rules can differ. So a roll to attack can be handled different than roll to climb the cliffside. If you so choose. Even still, success with complications is fine in combat as it gets rid of "nothing happened". When a attack is made, and defense negated it = nothing happened. The attacker is no closer to winning and the defender is no closer to losing. Its a non-result. If instead defense caused a complication on the attacker, then something happened. The defender gets a hurt, but now the attacker is wide open, off foot, weaker, etc etc...

I am a fan of "why do characters have to be invincible?" It's ok to get stabbed, but don't make it too punishing, make it interesting, and leave opportunity for reprisal from taking the hit. This helps things resolve faster anyway.
again just my 2c as to why i design the way i do...

I'd love to simplify that, but I'm not sure how to differentiate projectile weapons from direct-contact weapons if there's no range. I guess a sword and bow could both just be "d8 weapons," but that runs into unfun territory, no? I feel the need to note here that the range rule(s) are part of the Combat module, which can be added to Extended Conflict, but that's not a requirement.

That's valid and interesting point. As I think it over... hmmm.....

I regularly hunt and kill with guns and bows. I hunt big game, easily human sized and bigger with bows and guns. Both are deadly as heck. D&D ruined peoples concept of just how deadly bows are. Especially modern ones. And there then are crossbows... amazing at killing. So I am not sure what un-fun means there.

In my world, where killing is real, range is about two things = how long do i have to aim to take the shot, and is it in range at all. That's it. because within "effective range", if I hit, the animal is either dead or gravely wounded. Bow or gun, is largely the same = dead. On the most rare occasions is a second shot needed.

In fun adventure time rpg stuff... that's up to the pulp fiction of the author and what they want to model. Are you looking for Legolas? Robin Hood? Conan? Saving Private Ryan? How do you want your gun/bow/sword combat to feel and play out?

The game I wrote is set in the 1960's. So we have common guns of pistols, less common rifles and machine guns. And common knives (and very uncommon swords). The game is far more about fictional position than range. So my rules reflect that. Instead of just adding rules for range and dodge as a base fact, I have "situation". If you have the time to get a long rifle, aim, calm, and shoot = either there is no roll at all, we just deal with consequences/fallout of your target dying. Or you roll to see if you made the shot, which = amounts to the same result as not needed to shoot (target is dead, deal with consequences) ; and with the additional possible result of "you missed and now there are other consequences".

If your character is the one being shot at... we do the same in reverse. Are you taking precautions to stay out of LOS/Danger? If not, the guy shoots you and you deal with the consequences. If you are being defensive and aware, then make you defense roll. just like above, one result is - you get shot, deal with the consequences, and also possible you make your defense so they miss, deal with the new consequences.

Where in all that was "range" even relevant, other than "can the shot be made at all?"

In a run-and-gun situation = its the same, with the only difference being the fictional position of "now that we are running/moving we are all hard targets, so that adds new complications."

yrmv

mostly I am just blathering about wider options

I thought about putting the words within the icons. Would that make more sense? I could remove the icons, but then we'd just be back to reading the rules, and not really seeing them.

I dunno, the text it self you had explaining the rule around Attribute Bonuses made sense to me, i understood your rule text well enough. So I am not sure I am clear what clarification the image is going for here.

....
side note: I marked "rules make sense mostly", the doc was easy enough for me to understand.

 

[GMMichael]

Still editing, but I think the damage rules are in their final form:

Pretty streamlined, if I do say so myself.