Frostburn in PDF @ drivethrurpg!

[sarcasm]As much as I love purchasing overpriced books and pdfs, I'm sure to pick up Frostburn as a PDF. Oh, and naturally it is a product I need because I'm involved in a [DnD] campaign, where this kind of a rules supplement is a perfect fit for![/sarcasm]
 

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What research have you actually done?
Great Mastiff Corp. said:
However, I and those who advise me also feel that there is a HUGE risk of destroying sales of the print product, because once the PDF is purchased, it can be multiplied endlessly, put up on pirate websites, etc. etc.
I submit as counter-example every book released by Monte Cook's Malhavok Press. He releases the PDF 3-4 months before the print version is available for sale and the PDF costs less. If this was hurting his print sales why would he keep doing it? Answer: It doesn't hurt and may actually help your print sales.
It is true that someone could scan the book in page by page and do much the same, but why do the work for them?
The very first day every WotC book is released, several different PDFs scanned from the book are available for download on the pirate networks. What work are you saving these pirates if they are so efficient already?
(There is another reason for WotC's high MSRP on print books, by the way, but since I'm not certain about the confidentiality of the issue, I will not repeat it here. Before I got into the publishing end of the industry, I always used to fume about Wizards' expensive books. Now that I know some more, I actually sympathize with them ... they aren't seeing very much of that Frostburn price actually coming in to pay the salaries, I can tell you that much.)
What conspiracy is this? There is one and only one reason for high MSRPs on print books. Printing books is expensive and risky. Publishers make between 25% and 35% of the listed sales price per sale. That doesn't include printing costs, shipping/distibution (to distributors) costs, warehousing costs, salaries, physical overhead, marketting and promotion, etc, etc, etc. Just about everyone here on the Publishers forum knows how little a book earns. What makes you think it's a secret?
 

jmucchiello said:
I submit as counter-example every book released by Monte Cook's Malhavok Press. He releases the PDF 3-4 months before the print version is available for sale and the PDF costs less. If this was hurting his print sales why would he keep doing it? Answer: It doesn't hurt and may actually help your print sales.
Why would Monte continue to sell books as standard pdf? Well, when he didn't (and used DTRPG exclusively) he got a lot of angry customers that pretty well might have cost him a lot of lost sales. Not only on the pdf front, but also the print front. Monte's ebooks are available, shortly after they are released as an ebook, on 'pirate' channels.

The problem probably is established business practice of the company, customers are generally very hesitant of change. As Monte started as a pdf only business, going to print only might very well result in a lot of alienated customers. But i would bet that his print sales would increase.

The very first day every WotC book is released, several different PDFs scanned from the book are available for download on the pirate networks. What work are you saving these pirates if they are so efficient already?
What conspiracy is this? There is one and only one reason for high MSRPs on print books. Printing books is expensive and risky. Publishers make between 25% and 35% of the listed sales price per sale. That doesn't include printing costs, shipping/distibution (to distributors) costs, warehousing costs, salaries, physical overhead, marketting and promotion, etc, etc, etc.
WotC books are high profile products, can the same be said for less well known publishers? Let's take another big publisher, AEG with the SpyCraft and SG-1 line. Of the entire line of 20-25 products, there are currently only 3 of those books circulating in the 'pirate' channels.

Why is that? Well, those quick and high quality scans destroy a source book. A source book costs money, and after destroying the binding often looses the utility to the owner. A 'cracked' pdf on the other hand doesn't loose it's initial utility to the owner, and as a result is far more likely to happen.

Is a pdf far more efficient to the publisher? Yes it is, but if the publisher already has a well established printing business, the vendors might object to the practice of making a pdf available for less then MSRP. How do they object? By ordering less, this will directly impact the publisher, selling less printed books results in less books being printed in the first place and printing cost goes up. A 10% drop in print sales might make a product unfeasable as a print product, companies like Hasbro crackdown hard on that.

WotC, as a wholy owned subsidary of Hasbro, might need to redirect x % of all the money earned due to printing game books directly back to the parent company. This might be a way to increase operating funds. Just speculation though, but i've seen some pretty screwed up business practicess...
 


jmucchiello said:
Just about everyone here on the Publishers forum knows how little a book earns. What makes you think it's a secret?
I'm thinking Great Mastiff refers to something that's specific to WOTC - probably they have to funnel a certain amount of money to Hasbro or something like that.
 

A little tidbit from the thread on wizards.com:
Charles Ryan said:
Since we offered Frostburn as a DRM eBook online, we’ve had a number of questions (here and in other fora) from gamers about the decision. In particular, many people have concerns about the DRM format, and about the fact that the eBook format has the same MSRP as the physical book. There have been a million other comments and questions--good and bad--but since those two issues seem to be the biggest, they’re what I’m going to tackle here.

The MSRP: The problem most people have with the price seems to be that eBooks are not "worth as much" as physical books. If that’s true for you, by all means continue to purchase physical books at your local game store (or wherever you shop for D&D). We’re not trying to convert you into an eBook user if you don’t want to be; I myself will likely stick with physical books around the gaming table for the time being.

Some people, however, feel that the eBook format offers a lot of advantages over physical books. It’s easier to carry 20 books in a laptop than to lug a 30-pound bookbag around, for example. eBooks are bookmarked and easily searchable. And you can cut and paste text out of the eBook (in limited amounts) if, for example, you want to paste a monster’s stat block into the adventure you’re preparing, or want to add the text of a feat description to your character sheet.

eBooks cost less to manufacture than physical books, that’s true. But the bulk of the value of a D&D product--and the bulk of our cost in making it--isn’t the paper, ink, and glue of the physical product. It’s the great content--the art, the ideas, the writing, the game mechanics, and so on. That’s what you’re really paying for when you buy a D&D product, and that’s what generates the real cost for us.

Finally, we value everyone who has helped make D&D a success over the years, and that "everyone" includes not just gamers but the game store owners who have supported D&D and helped it grow for three decades. We could always make a few more bucks by cutting out the middleman and selling directly to you--that’s true of physical books as well as eBooks. But we aren’t going to undercut the businesses that have helped us get where we are today--the businesses that probably helped you first get into gaming, and maybe continue to be a place where you find games, meet other gamers, and keep up with what’s going on in D&D. These game, hobby, and book stores are our bread and butter, and we’re not going to operate a cut-rate side business at their expense. If that means that we sell a few less copies of the eBook, so be it.

Please don’t think of an eBook as an el cheapo alternative to other formats. If the only reason you want to buy a PDF is to save a few bucks, this offering isn’t for you. There are plenty of places where you can buy D&D products at below MSRP; feel free to take your money there. If, on the other hand, you see more utility in a PDF than in a paper product, I think you’ll find that Frostburn is just as valuable in eBook form as it is as a physical book--and worth every penny.

The DRM Format: Sorry to be a little long-winded on the MSRP issue, but it’s a complex issue and there’s a lot to say. This one should be easier (and shorter).

There’s a lot of false information on the net about secure eBooks. Some people will tell you that you can’t use your DRM product unless you’re connected to the internet, or that you can’t print it, or that you can’t use it on more than one computer, or that you can’t make back ups of it, or that Adobe Reader is spyware, and on and on. Frankly, that’s a bunch of baloney, propogated mostly be people who’ve never actually tried a DRM eBook.

Here’s the scoop: If you have a copy of Adobe Reader (and who doesn’t?), you simply register it with Adobe. (Go to Tools-->eBook Web Services-->Adobe DRM Activator in Adobe Reader.) It takes three minutes, tops. Once you do that, you can use any DRM eBook you purchase just as if it were a regular PDF. You can read the eBook on other computers you own, as long as you register Adobe Reader on that machine too. Other people can’t read the eBooks you purchased, and you can’t read theirs, but other than that there’s no difference between a DRM eBook and any other PDF. If you don’t believe me, I invite to you go to DriveThruRPG.com, download one of their free products, and give it a spin. Doesn’t cost you a dime.

-----

I think my comments here address the majority of questions that have been raised--if not, feel free to post your comments. Again, the bottom line is this: If you don’t think the eBook is a good deal, don’t buy it. We won’t be offended--honest! If you like the idea of eBook D&D products, give it a shot. You won’t get any special discount, but you will get a great book in a really useful format.
 

Note that this part of Charles' comment seems to go directly against what Great Mastiff is saying. If the bulk of the price lies in the *content*, then I assume that means either salaries or licenses.
Charles Ryan said:
But the bulk of the value of a D&D product--and the bulk of our cost in making it--isn’t the paper, ink, and glue of the physical product. It’s the great content--the art, the ideas, the writing, the game mechanics, and so on. That’s what you’re really paying for when you buy a D&D product, and that’s what generates the real cost for us.
 
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A general estimate on printing cost vs. 'development' cost is that 10% of MSRP is generally spent on printing and 30% is spent on developing a product and is the profit margin all in one...
 

Roudi said:
Publishers have got to stop seeing every pirated copy of their book as a lost sale.
This point is so important, I feel the need to bring it up again. The problem is that publishers who do this are comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples, as I'll explain below.

Simple supply-demand economics tells you that as price for an item decreases, demand for that item will increase until it reaches saturation; thus at a price of "zero," the demand is at saturation - everyone who wants a copy will get one (the, "if it's free, there's a line" theory).

Pirated works carry some non-dollar costs with them, however, so their cost is not quite truly zero - worries about illegality and guilt, for instance, may deter someone from grabbing a pirated copy (I am going to go out on a limb and state that the "monetary value" of this is less than one cent - I think a product that costs one cent and is legal will have less people grab it than one that is free and illegal). So, assuming that they are released in the same distribution channels (i.e., to the same audience), a "free and legal" product should have a larger number of copies distributed than a "free and illegal" product when it reaches saturation.

The point most publishers - and the RIAA/MPAA seem to miss, is that as the price moves away from zero, demand WILL decrease. Plotting that demand curve is of course tricky, but my guess is that even a price of "$0.01 and legal" will shift the demand curve to a lower number than "free but illegal" because there is some time cost and inconvenience cost even to pay $0.01. And of course, as the price continues to climb, the demand curve continues to drop.

The reality, however, is that the distribution channels are not equally populated... and in fact by nature cannot be (P2P networks, the most famous of which is Kazaa, for example, have no mechanism by which someone can pay for a download, hence, it is impossible to distribute a "pay for this and own it legally" PDF in the exact same channels as a "free but illegal" one). Furthermore, different populations inhabit each distribution channel - some of them cross over, I am sure, but I would hazard a guess that for the most part, those who purchase things over legal channels rarely frequent pirate channels and the vast majority of those who pirate things rarely purchase things via legal channels (obviously, some of them do, because you have to have at least one "seed copy" purchased through legitimate channels in order to pirate it, but my guess is that it's probably more or less the same small dedicated group of "seed providers" that crosses over - most of the downloaders don't).

I say this for the simple reason that in essence, the two channels are offering the same product for a different price... i.e., the product is competing with itself... one version is "for pay and legal" and the other version is "for free and illegal."

Obviously, in strict economic terms, for some people there must be some perceived benefit to "legal" because otherwise, legal channels would only see a few sales (the "seed copies") before everyone chose the free copies. So we know that for some consumers, "legal" is demonstrably worth the $1 or $5 - or $35 difference - these are the customers who choose the "for pay and legal" over the "for free and illegal."

However, the million-dollar question remains unanswered... "how much of the demand curve for the 'pay and legal' copy was eaten up by competition from the 'free and illegal' copy?"

And it is here that we understand the logical fallacy that publishers are running into:

PREMISE: At a given cost point, there is a given demand for a product.

PREMISE: As the price point increases, demand will decrease, and vice versa.

PREMISE: A given cost point can be expressed as a function of Monetary Price Point and Liability Price Point, where Monetary Price Point is the cost in money of obtaining the product and Liability Price Point is the potential liability that obtaining the product exposes the receiver to.

DEFINITION: A "for pay and legal" copy of a Product has a Monetary Price Point A and Liability Price Point of zero (since legally obtaining a copy exposes you to zero liability).

DEFINITION: A "for free but illegal" (a.k.a. "pirated") copy of a Product has a Monetary Price Point zero and Liability Price Point of B (since illegally obtaining a copy exposes you to some amount of liability).

ASSUMPTION: For the purposes of this exercise, we will assume that only two versions of the product are available - "for pay and legal" and "for free but illegal."

CONCLUSION ONE: For the "for pay and legal" product, at Monetary Price Point A, there are X number of people who will demand a product. X(1) of them will purchase it legally. X - X(1) of them will decide that Monetary Price Point A is greater than Liability Price Point B and thus will choose the product they perceive as less "expensive" (paying B in assumed liability rather than A in money).

CONCLUSION TWO: For the "for free but illegal" product, at Liability Price Point B, there are Y number of people who will demand the product. Y(1) of them will download it and assume the liability. Y - Y(1) of them will decide that Monetary Price Point A is less than Liability Price Point B and thus will choose to purchase the (legal version of) product instead.

CONCLUSION THREE: Total downloads are equal to X(1) plus Y(1).

NOTE: Some crossover must exist between Y(1) and X - X(1). Some crossover also exists between X(1) and Y - Y(1). We know this since the total demand is NOT the sum of the demand at each of the price points. For a quick example, if you personally need one and only one of something and are willing to it something for $5, you're probably also willing to buy it for $2 - which means your personal demand is still only for one item, not for one at $5 and another at $2 for a total of two items.

COMMON LOGICAL FALLACY: Lost sales are equal to Y(1). This is absolutely incorrect. Lost sales are equal to X - X(1), period.

Y(1) tells us only that X - X(1) must be less than Y(1). In English, that just means that the number of Lost Sales to piracy can be no more than the total number of pirated copies (this seems somewhat self-evident).

(END OF FORMAL LOGIC ARGUMENTS)

Here's the problem with the logical fallacy - you're looking at two different portions of the demand curve and calling each portion the "split" of the curve in each distribution channel (legal vs pirate). You can't do it that way... you should be looking at the same portion of the demand curve split into the "legal" and "pirate" channels to calculate "lost sales." The only information you can logically derive by looking at the legal and pirate numbers is that Lost Sales are less than or equal to the pirated downloads.

How MUCH difference you think there is between the demand at Price Point A and Price Point B is a matter for debate... though my guess is that the demand difference is several multiples, if not an order of magnitude of difference. In other words, I happen to think that most pirated copies represent not lost sales, but instead reflect the natural swelling of the demand curve as perceived cost decreases and are simply the difference in demand between the two price points.

For the record, it is my hypothesis that more people perceive Liability Price Point B as less than Monetary Price Point A, and thus the natural demand for copies at Price Point B is higher than the demand for copies at Price Point A... and thus there are more pirated copies than lost sales. I also hypothesize that due to the comparatively low monetary cost of most PDFs, the Perceived Liability Cost for those who choose to pirate must be nearly indistinguishable from 0 to have any piracy whatsoever. Furthermore, if that cost is nearly indistinguishable from zero, it is almost impossible for ANY monetary price other than "free" to compete with that. In fact, I'll take that hypothesis further and say outright that I believe that the monetary price of a good has, essentially, zero effect on the demand for pirated copies. Whether you price your stuff at $5 or $50, you'd probably see the same number of pirated copies.

Furthermore, I think with stuff so cheap... and still pirated anyway, you can't be seeing much in the way of lost sales as anyone who places any sort of value on legality over liability will pay the cheap asking price (as a side note, by extension, I think this applies to the RIAA... if someone's not going to pay less than a buck per song, clearly, they aren't going to pay money for it at all - the RIAA has apparently figured this out; their lawsuits are clearly trying to increse the Perceived Liability Cost but I don't think it's having much effect). In short, the honest people will be honest and pay you, and the "pirates" will take it if they can get it without paying you, but you can't find a way to turn the "pirates" into paying customers because they simply don't value your product enough (or in many cases, at all).

Long-winded post, and no way to "wrap it up" satisfactorily, but there you have it in terms hopefully even a Pointy-Haired Boss can understand. total illegal downloads are NOT equal to total lost sales, period, and I feel based on the evidence, a pretty good case can be made (due to piracy of even ultra-low-cost stuff) that there's a good chance that not only do total illegal downloads not equal total lost sales, illegal downloads probably do not equal ANY lost sales.

Disappointing to publishers/RIAA who see all these pirated copies and think, "hey, look, there's an untapped market that wants our stuff! How can we sell to them?" (and we'll give publishers the doubt and assume they truly do mean well and are jsut tyring to serve a broader customer base - no snide remarks on their 'true hidden greedy rat bastard' motivations, please) ... because the pirates are not interested in buying. They're just interested in a free lunch... they flat out won't buy no matter what you do. They're not potential customers... they're a mirage, and the farther and harder you chase them, the more you're throwing good money after bad.

--The Sigil
 

The Sigil said:
Simple supply-demand economics tells you that as price for an item decreases, demand for that item will increase until it reaches saturation; thus at a price of "zero," the demand is at saturation - everyone who wants a copy will get one (the, "if it's free, there's a line" theory).

But the supply of electronic files is theoretically limitless, since they can be copied and distributed, unlike, say, and automobile or desktop computer....
 

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