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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Friend of the Dork" data-source="post: 5354601" data-attributes="member: 91954">Grappling!Sigh.. I thought the new grapple rules were supposed to be less complicated and more steamlined than 3.5 grapple (at least that's what supposed to be one of the winning points of PF). After rereading the grapple rules it seems it has changed more than I thought initially: 1. Grappled creatures (controller OR victim) both retain their dex to ac, (and thus cannot be sneak attacked that easily), but both also take a -4 penalty to dex, meaning among other things that their CMD is lowered (as is their AC), and yes this even applies to the actual grapplers!2. Once grapple is initiated it is easier for both sides to take control or break free of the grapple..., although the controller gets a +5 to maintain the grapple (but not to prevent the grappled from breaking free). 3. If you succeed a grapple check you are both considered Grappled, but the "controlling grappler" gets a +5 bonus of CMBs vs the controlled. 4. There is no longer a touch attack to initiate a grapple, just a combat maneuver (CMB vs CMD). This means characters with Dodge bonuses, Deflection Bonuses etc. are more vulnerable to grapple, while big strong warrior-types have much better chance to avoid such. 5. If the defender hits with an AoO as the grapple is initiated, it does not prevent the attacker from continuing the grapple (unless of course he runs out of hit points). 6. There is no longer that difficult for a halfling to grapple an ogre. That is, the larget only recieves a "net" +2 to CMs. Still strength matter more, it is easier for the ogre to grapple the halfling than the halfling to grapple the ogre (or to break free if he is grappled in the first place, unless Escape Artist is used). 7. If you already control the grapple and succeed a CMB to maintain it, you can in addition either move, damage, pin or tie up the defender. You cannot actually full attack though, since you need to use a standard action or the grapple ends (unless you have an extra standard action per turn somehow..). If you choose to inflict damage as an attack there are no rules concerning critical hits, power attack etc. since you don't actually make an attack roll just inflict damage "as if attacking with a light weapon or 1-handed weapon." 8. Having multiple attacks will in no way help you grapple more or easier, although BAB counts. You can now still use you longsword/mace etc (1-hand required). while you are grappled, without having to win any grapple check. So it seems grappling is only worthwhile if the enemy has a two-handed weapon.  9. The defender can actually attack while in grapple instead of trying to break free, but only with one hand (or light weapons, although I've never heard of light weapons that are two-handed so I assume this is redundant). He also recieves a -2 penalty on all attacks, but since the grapler has -4 dex attacking him has no net penalty! This could result in: Fighter runs over to enemy and uses grapple (with Improved Grapple Feat for no AoO). Fighter succeeds. Enemy fighter thinks "eh" and performs a full attack on the fighter, at no real penalty. Of course that enables the fighter to easily Pin the defender next round, which should put a stop to such nonsense. I can't actually see that Pinning prevents you from attacking, it only says "A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take" and specifying a few things it can't do (moving, casting spells with somatic components etc.)and some it can. To be honest though you can interpret the actions listed as the only actions allowed. Technically, since you're also flat-footed you cannot make AoOs unless you possess the Combat Reflexes feat... ? The Pinned condition specifices that it does not stack with Grappled (as being a more severe condition), but does that mean you replace Grappled with Pinned or that you use the highest of the penalties involed? Let's see the differences: 1. Pinned replaces Grappled: You lose the -4 to dex but instead recieve a -4 to AC, making you easier to attack by outsiders but harder to continue to pin/grapple/damage in grapple.. ???? You still cannot move, but you can now make AoO IF you have the Combat Reflexes feat. You also lose any (positive) dex to ac, unless you have Uncanny dodge. You no longer have penalties on attack and CMB, but might be interpreted as being unable to do so anyway. 2. Pinned is in addition to Grappled but same effects do not stack: Since you retain the dex penalty you have the same poor CMD, and your net loss to AC is actually -6. If for some reason you are allowed to attack while Pinned, you still recieve the -2 and cannot make AoOs at all not matter what. I think Pinned is meant to list available actions and thus the penalties to attack from Grappled is meaningless, and that the penalty to dex is thought to be pointless because of the -4 to AC. The problem I have with that though is that once Pinned you are actually harder to grapple more for others!Ok thats' it folks... I'm not sure if I like all the changes in grappling, especially the lack of being able to use full attack in conjunction with grapple. Now unless someone can show us an errata here RAW is clear on this point. It may not be RAI.. but that's what you have erratas for. </blockquote>

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