Full attack/flurry while grappling?

[Herzog]

I'm confused.

In inquiring about a grappling build, I have found several references to the monk's flurry ability being used in a grapple, and having it use the monk's level apply to the CMB instead of his Bab.

However, if I check the grapple rules, they state you can either release your opponent (as a free action) or attempt to maintain the grapple (as a standard action)
Assuming I want to maintain the grapple, how can I make a full attack?

 

[Kaisoku]

Well, a developer specifically said that a Monk can flurry, as long as he keeps a hand free (so no using two monk weapons in the flurry). So if a dev says it's okay, I'm gonna go with it.

The standard action to maintain the grapple also grants an attack along with it. If you do nothing but grapple and attack I'd say that you make your grapple check and flurry as full round action.

Actually, the devs said you can make a full attack in during a grapple, as long as you meet the conditions (need one hand free to maintain, using proper weapon, etc).
The grappled condition was changed in Pathfinder to be more "I'm using one hand to grab you and hold onto you", not "I'm draped all over you". So you need to roll a maneuver check to maintain the grapple, and it's minimum a standard action, but you can make it a full round action and spend that time to make a full attack with your other hand (or any free appendage if unarmed strike).

The major point being that the standard action to maintain the grapple is kind of like the move action to draw a weapon.. it's at least the stated action, but you can do other stuff along with it.
In either case (full attack with holding grapple, or two move actions while drawing a weapon), you aren't limited to that action for the round.

 

[Herzog]

I WANT to believe you, but I'm still hesitant.

If something ( maintain grapple ) takes a standard action, and you may make an attack/do damage as part of that standard action, that usually means you can NOT do a full attack.

Although circumstantial evidence (developers on forums) seems to indicate the standard action for maintaining a grapple follows different rules, I have yet to see a rule reference for this, as well as a direct quote.

In 3.5, you could maintain the grapple as one of your attacks (or, as some put it confusingly, as an 'attack action')

In pathfinder, maintaining a grapple is SPECIFICALLY a standard action.

I just don't see how you can make multiple attacks while grappling....

 

[Kaisoku]

Well, I just did directly quote a developer's comment in that wrestler build thread.

Here it is again if you want:

Q: Can a monk do a Flurry of Blows during a grapple as it requires a full attack action?
A: (Jason Bulmahn 12/11/09) The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.

Click on the link in the name/date for the exact thread/post where he said this. This FAQ can be found at the d20pfsrd.

Considering this is the exact person who made the changes to grappling saying this, you at least have the RAI behind the pathfinder rule. If the guy who made the rule says you can do it, then I'm not sure what more you need.

 

[Herzog]

Ok, I carefully read that thread.

My conclusion: you cannot perform a flurry of blows AND maintain a grapple.

The monk that IS allowed a flurry of blows is the one that is being grappled. He does NOT have to maintain the grapple (he doesn't care if he's grappled or not, he is simply attacking) and therefore does NOT have to spend a standard action.

However, if the monk is the one initiating the grapple, than pinning the opponent, the monk is still grappling (and now has to maintain the pin instead of the grapple, but the result is the same) and therefore can only perform a single attack (as a part of maintaining the grapple/pin)

 

[Kaisoku]

Yeah, actually.. it seems Jason did say "grappled", from the perspective of the monk being grappled himself, not the other way around.

So yeah, it seems you are pretty much limited to only one attack (two with greater grapple) per round if you are maintaining it.
If you keep manacles/rope, I guess you could keep the person pinned that way, and then full attack at your leisure. But at that point you are beating on a virtually helpless person, so I'm not sure it matters if you are a Monk (flurry + sneak attack might be overkill in that situation).

 

[jdeleski]

I agree with the points made in the discussion above, but find one area of the "attack while grappled" rules that seems a bit odd: the grappled creature is allowed to attack anyone within reach as long as the attack can be made with a single hand.

The part that I find odd is that the grappled creature can make that attack, even against creatures who are outside the grapple, without first making a CMB/CMD check against the creature that controls the grapple. Making this attack would seem to me to be similar to other combat manuevers that are attempted while within a grapple. I can potentially see why the grappled (and not controlling) creature might be able to easily attack the grapple controlling opponent, since that opponent is right there in his face trying to maintain the grapple, but attacking creatures outside the grapple seems a stretch.

J.

 

[Ashtagon]

Reading the SRD, it would seem that maintaining a grapple is an attack action that, if successful, lasts an entire round. if you have multiple attacks, either from flurry or from high bab (or both), you can use one of those attacks to maintain the grapple, and the rest to attack with.

 

[Herzog]

which SRD are you reading?

Because, AFAIK, in Pathfinder maintaining a grapple is a standard action.
If you maintain a grapple successfull, you may make an attack as part of that standard action, or do unarmed damage, or pin, etc.

 

[Kaisoku]

In fact, it's not even an "attack" (which could trigger other things that run off that). Rather, you are allowed to deal damage using unarmed strike damage or a weapon held in a free hand (light or one-handed).

So it's definitely a standard action, because there's no attack roll involved. You roll the CMB vs CMD, and after success you deal damage.