D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Monk Discussion

[Clint_L]

So, I think I agree that deflect attack is too powerful in its current form. Reactions typically go unused, so you wind up automatically choosing to spend it on deflect attack whenever you get hit. And it makes monks very, very tough in most melee situations. Like, tougher than fighters, barbarians, and paladins, which feels like a problem because new monk gets unmatched mobility and pretty strong offence, too.

I would down-tune it to reducing damage by a martial arts die plus dexterity bonus. Adding the monk's level to the damage reduction makes it scale really well, but at level 10 I can basically count on eliminating 20 points of damage every round. That's REALLY good for the cost of a reaction (so, almost for free). And when you can combine it with patient defence and the extreme mobility offered by step of the wind, the practical result is that my monk almost never feels threatened - hard to hit, virtually impossible to score a critical upon, able to shrug off the first 20 points of damage, all but immune to AoE attacks (evasion), and able to escape almost any situation in a pinch.

I never thought I'd write these words, but right now playing a monk feels overpowered.

 

[mellored]

I think the Monk's level 1 issues are dealt with by the change to Martial Arts that allow them to Dodge/Bonus Unarmed Strike (and then Dodge/Flurry at level 2).

Fair.
We did a quick one shot where we leveled up after every battle. So the idea of using your action to dodge didn't come up.

at level 10 I can basically count on eliminating 20 points of damage every round. That's REALLY good for the cost of a reaction (so, almost for free).

Yea. It's OP at level 3, didn't know about higher levels.

Do you think it would be ok of it was just Martial Arts die + monk level?

 

[Clint_L]

Fair.
We did a quick one shot where we leveled up after every battle. So the idea of using your action to dodge didn't come up.

It feels weird when you start using your actions for the things that feel like they should be bonus actions, and vice versa. "For my bonus action, I'm just gonna kick this guy 3 times for 30 points of damage."

Yea. It's OP at level 3, didn't know about higher levels.

Do you think it would be ok of it was just Martial Arts die + monk level?

I think that would be better at low levels but maybe not enough of a nerf at high levels? It was pretty great at level 9, but at level 10 you get enhancements to all of the level 2 ki-based moves, and patient defence (which at level 10 also gives temp HP) combined with deflect attacks means that you basically start each round 30 HP ahead, with all attacks against you at a disadvantage...which also pushes most critical hits off the table.

Caveat: in our party it's extra broken because our barbarian is Way of the Ancestral Guardian, so my monk is often also resistant to damage, as well as everything else. But even without that, she can tank pretty much anything unless it's a swarm, or something doing a lot of non-physical, non-AoE damage.

Our alchemist also brings a steel defender to the party. And we have a moon druid.

 

[mellored]

I think that would be better at low levels but maybe not enough of a nerf at high levels?

20 reduction to 15 reduction is a 25% nerf. That's pretty big.

You think they are that not enough?

Caveat: in our party it's extra broken because our barbarian is Way of the Ancestral Guardian, so my monk is often also resistant to damage,

Remember that damage reduction comes before resistance.

Though before THP.

 

[Clint_L]

She's pretty tanky, is what I'm finding. Dunno if 25% is enough. Maybe? Have to play test it, while keeping her away from her barbarian buddy. My intuition is that it still might not be enough.

Edit: Am I gonna complain if it goes live and monk is kinda OP? Not really - it might be karma for a class that has always been underpowered. But it would be better if it was balanced, IMO.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So, I think I agree that deflect attack is too powerful in its current form. Reactions typically go unused, so you wind up automatically choosing to spend it on deflect attack whenever you get hit.

Are you comparing to 2014 characters or 2024 characters? Because it feels to me like a tier 2 ability you get at tier 1; the rogue already gets their Uncanny Dodge as a use for their reaction, and Sentinels and Polearm Masters are going to become a lot more common for the other martials thanks to the change in feats plus the nerf to Great Weapon Master.

The big thing about Deflect Attack of course is that it only works against B/P/S attacks. Which gets rarer at higher levels - this is a big reason the barbarian falls off. The other big thing about it is that it combos extremely well with anything that provides resistances.

And it makes monks very, very tough in most melee situations. Like, tougher than fighters, barbarians, and paladins, which feels like a problem because new monk gets unmatched mobility and pretty strong offence, too.

Just watch their AC - which scales worse than it used to because of there being feats competing with ASIs. And a lack of shield and robes means they are pretty easy to hit.

I think it's a little OP at the level you get it and that it will make the Monk 2-4 be a less obscene version of the moon druid. But fundamentally it's one attack per round for a low AC melee character. If the monk ever gets into a beatdown situation they are in a whole lot of trouble but if they get to skirmish and 1v1 the way they want they're incredible. DM tactics and party composition (see: providing resistance) will have a huge impact here.

 

[mellored]

Are you comparing to 2014 characters or 2024 characters? Because it feels to me like a tier 2 ability you get at tier 1; the rogue already gets their Uncanny Dodge as a use for their reaction, and Sentinels and Polearm Masters are going to become a lot more common for the other martials thanks to the change in feats plus the nerf to Great Weapon Master.

A CR 10 stone golem, hits for 19 damage.

That makes Deflect Attack is twice as good as Uncanny Dodge. Plus it can get a reaction attack half the time.

Just watch their AC - which scales worse than it used to because of there being feats competing with ASIs. And a lack of shield and robes means they are pretty easy to hit.

I don't see how it scales worse. You still take the +2 Dex most of the time. There are just a few more options if you start with an odd score.

Starts pretty low though.

The big thing about Deflect Attack of course is that it only works against B/P/S attacks. Which gets rarer at higher levels - this is a big reason the barbarian falls off. The other big thing about it is that it combos extremely well with anything that provides resistances.

Deflect Energy and proficiency in all saves, reroll on all saves, keeps monks defenses up just fine at higher levels.

1v1 the way they want they're incredible. DM tactics and party composition (see: providing resistance) will have a huge impact here.

I definitely want to keep them as 1v1 kings.

Just not 1v1 emperors.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Are you comparing to 2014 characters or 2024 characters? Because it feels to me like a tier 2 ability you get at tier 1; the rogue already gets their Uncanny Dodge as a use for their reaction, and Sentinels and Polearm Masters are going to become a lot more common for the other martials thanks to the change in feats plus the nerf to Great Weapon Master.

The big thing about Deflect Attack of course is that it only works against B/P/S attacks. Which gets rarer at higher levels - this is a big reason the barbarian falls off. The other big thing about it is that it combos extremely well with anything that provides resistances.

Just watch their AC - which scales worse than it used to because of there being feats competing with ASIs. And a lack of shield and robes means they are pretty easy to hit.

I think it's a little OP at the level you get it and that it will make the Monk 2-4 be a less obscene version of the moon druid. But fundamentally it's one attack per round for a low AC melee character. If the monk ever gets into a beatdown situation they are in a whole lot of trouble but if they get to skirmish and 1v1 the way they want they're incredible. DM tactics and party composition (see: providing resistance) will have a huge impact here.

The monk in this state is OP. Glad that @Clint_L 's playtest shows that.
That does not mean any of thise concepts need to go away. They just have to be adjusted.

Martial arts die + dex.
And if you spend a Ki point, add monk level and a reaction attack. That would be sufficient to make tha ability balanced.

 

[mellored]

Martial arts die + dex.
And if you spend a Ki point, add monk level and a reaction attack. That would be sufficient to make tha ability balanced.

I like the idea of using points to boost the reduction. Then have the counter attack be free. But I don't think +Dex isn't enough scaling for the base.

Deflect Attack

Martial Arts die + half your monk level. If reduced to 0 you can redirect...
Speed 1 DP to increase the damage reduction to two dice + your monk level

Level 10
Spend 2 DP to make it 3 dice + Dex + Wis + monk level.

 

[Clint_L]

Are you comparing to 2014 characters or 2024 characters? Because it feels to me like a tier 2 ability you get at tier 1; the rogue already gets their Uncanny Dodge as a use for their reaction, and Sentinels and Polearm Masters are going to become a lot more common for the other martials thanks to the change in feats plus the nerf to Great Weapon Master.

Our barbarian is using the 2024 rules, our moon druid has stuck with 2014 (understandable), and our artificer...is an artificer. But I'm mostly comparing to my experience running a LOT of 2014 games over the years and seeing plenty of monks, as well as playing this character using the 2014 rules until level 9. Feels way tougher...and way more fun. Don't get me wrong, I am a BIG proponent of these changes overall. I just think deflect attack, in particular, needs some fine-tuning, partly because of the way it synergizes with everything else she can do.

The big thing about Deflect Attack of course is that it only works against B/P/S attacks. Which gets rarer at higher levels - this is a big reason the barbarian falls off. The other big thing about it is that it combos extremely well with anything that provides resistances.

B/P/S attacks fall off somewhat...but not so much that they aren't a factor in almost every fight. The reality of the current deflect attack is that it is so good that you often waste a chunk of it because it is more powerful than a lot of the incoming melee attacks. Yes, it really does combo well with resistances...and being able to give your opponent disadvantage, which new monk can do pretty much on demand (and my monk is Mercy, so she usually doesn't even have to give up offence to give a foe disadvantage).

Just watch their AC - which scales worse than it used to because of there being feats competing with ASIs. And a lack of shield and robes means they are pretty easy to hit.

I'm not finding this. My monk has AC 21 at level 10, which is plenty strong, and that's just with unarmored defence, bracers of defence, and ring of protection. If she goes to level 20 and doesn't even get any new gear, she will have AC 28. Naked. And damage resistance to almost everything, and the ability to impose disadvantage on demand, evade virtually all AoE, and be virtually immune to critical hits. She will be a phenomenal tank.

I think it's a little OP at the level you get it and that it will make the Monk 2-4 be a less obscene version of the moon druid. But fundamentally it's one attack per round for a low AC melee character. If the monk ever gets into a beatdown situation they are in a whole lot of trouble but if they get to skirmish and 1v1 the way they want they're incredible. DM tactics and party composition (see: providing resistance) will have a huge impact here.

In my play testing, you just don't get into a beatdown situation. It is hard to overemphasize how mobile new monk is. Pinning her down is very, very hard. But mostly she doesn't have to worry about it because she is such a tank now.