fumbles in combat?

[Ice man]

I currently use a d20 roll on a chart for a natural 1 rolled in combat. I am looking at changing or turfing my fumble table and was wondering what other people use in their campaigns? Know of a good one posted on the web right now? I used to use the chart out of the best of Dragon Vol 3 and later the one from Rolemaster. the chart i use now is one i designed and am going to water down...just not sure how and how much.

My chart currently runs from stumble and lose round to provoke opportunity attack to hit ally or self to break weapon. I am mainly looking for melee effects here as i have a different chart for missile weapons.

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated

 

[Eccles]

My chart's percentile, with a heavy weight on "you just miss".

The easiest rule someone else has on the board is "If you roll 1, roll to hit. If you still miss, they get an attack of opportunity on you".

I quite like that, and would adopt it if I hadn't spent the time and effort in writing my own chart!

01-60 Miss!
61-63 Humiliating Miss! –1 on next attack roll.
64-66 Distracted; opponents next attack at +3 to hit.
67-70 Stumble; Reflex save DC 15, lose Dex mod to AC for D6 – Con Modifier (min of 1) rounds.
71-73 Slip; Reflex save DC 17, or lose weapon. (DC 15 for Two-Handed Weapons).
74-75 Fall; Reflex save DX 20 or fall prone and suffer the effects of Slip above.
76-78 Shield; Reflex save DC 15, or lose shield or offhand weapon (if no shield or offhand weapon, then as Slip, above).
79-86 Weapon damaged. (Roll damage on weapon).
87-90 Hit self. Make an attack roll against your (flat footed) AC.
91-95 Hit friend. Make an attack roll against a random (flat footed) ally. If no friend see "Soft Earth" below. If no Soft Earth, use "Weapon Damaged" above.
96-97 Twist ankle; half speed for 1 minute, Reflex save DC 22 or suffer D6 damage and results of ‘Fall’ above.
98-99 Strap Cut; a critical strap connecting your armour is ruined in the mêlée, causing the armour to be reduced in effectiveness. Take a –2 penalty to your AC until it has been repaired. If your armour bonus is lower than this, your clothes are destroyed!
00 Roll twice, ignoring further rolls of 00.

"Soft Earth" - Your attack goes wild and hits the nearest soft object (doorframe, corpse, mud, table, etc), and lodges itself fast. Pass a Strength check with a DC of 10 + your damage roll. Your weapon is dirtied, but otherwise undamaged.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Here's mine for melee and ranged weapons. I haven't finished the gunpowder weapons one.
Critical Misses

If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, roll again. If this second roll is a miss, not necessarily a natural 1, then roll on die 1a for melee weapons, die 2a for normal ranged weapons, or die 3a for gunpowder weapons. If the second roll is also a natural 1, roll a third time. If this roll is a miss, roll on die 1b for melee weapons, die 2b for normal ranged weapons, and die 3b for gunpowder weapons.

Die 1a (1d8)
1: Butterfingers! Dropped weapon.
2: Trip! You are now prone.
3: Wide swing! You provoke an attack of opportunity.
4: Long recover! Lose your next move-equivalent action to recover from swing.
5: Slip! Your weapon lands 10 feet away in a random direction.
6: Weapon damaged! Your weapon takes 1d6+Str damage, ignoring hardness.
7: Bad slip! You hit yourself. Only apply half your Str to damage.
8: Weapon destroyed! Your weapon is destroyed. Masterwork weapons take 2d6+Str damage.

Die 1b (1d4)
1: Weapon destroyed! Your weapon is destroyed. Magic weapons take 1d8+Str damage.
2: Bad slip! You hit an ally, or yourself if there are none in range. 1/2 Str to damage.
3: Wide swing with long recover! See above.
4: I laugh at you! You hit yourself and automatically crit. You are also prone.

Die 2a (1d8)
1: Butterfingers! You drop your weapon.
2: Collapse! Your weapon breaks in a repairable way.
3: Snap! Your bowstring snaps. Take 1 point of subdual damage. Composites add your Str bonus (as applicable) to this damage.
4: Random shot! Your projectile goes off in a random direction. Attack all in way, 50% missing.
5: Bad collapse! Your weapon is destroyed. Masterwork weapons take 2d4 damage.
6: Dropped ammo! You drop all your ammunition.
7: Trip! You are now prone.
8: Long recover! Lose your next move-equivalent action.

Die 2b (1d4)
1: Awful collapse with snap! Your weapon is destroyed and you take 1 point of damage. Magic weapons take 1d10 damage.
2: Random shot! Roll your attack against a random ally in range.
3: Nasty trip! You fall and twist your ankle, and have lost your ammo. You move at 1/2 speed for 3d8 rounds.
4: DM?s Choice.

 

[robberbaron]

Here's my take on d20 Fumbles:

Melee
1-5 No effect beyond looking daft in combat.
6-9 Off Balance: Lose all actions until your Initiative next round (you may take a 5' step).
10-12 Fall Over.
13-15 Blood in the Eyes: 25% miss and -2 AC & Initiative. 1 full round action to fix. [-1 AC & Initiative w/Blindfighting].
16-18 Weapon knocked away: d3x5', d8 for direction.
19 Weapon damaged: roll damage and apply to weapon.
20 Hurt self: ½ rolled damage. Reflex save DC15 to pull Strength.

Missile
1-6 Shot goes wild. DC12 search to find missile.
7-10 Shot goes really wild. DC18 search to find missile.
11-13 Weapon dropped.
14-16 Weapon damaged: roll damage and apply to weapon (no STR bonus).
17-18 Fall Over.
19 Hit nearest friend within range in cone of sight: rolled damage.
20 Hurt self: ½ rolled damage.

 

[Ed Cha]

When you fumble using a crossbow, it could lock up requiring another round to fix it.

 

[Janx]

fumbles don't happen.

I've never hurt myself while chopping down a tree. The most that has happened is that the axe deflects while splitting logs, and the flat has hit my leg, because I deflected it. The fact that I wear boots (and adventurers wear armor) makes real injury less likely.

I've never hurt myself while beating someone up

Worse still, everyone's fumble system occur when you roll an attack and get a 1.

This means that if you don't attack, you'll never fumble.

That's kind of dumb. Some kinds of fumbles are direct (I swing, miss, and the axe clips my leg). Other fumbles are a result of being attacked, or at least being in a dangerous situation.

So you need 2E's Combat and Tactics book with its Combat Event Table to cover basic battlefield shifts, stumbles, etc. And then a second table for what can happen to me when I use my weapon.

The basics that can happen when I swing my weapon are:
it could break/jam
I could drop it
it could get stuck in something
I might whack myself with it for a very minor wound (1-2hp)
I could slip/stumble

While being in combat, the likely things that can happen:
I could slip/stumble
I could drop my weapon
my weapon could break/jam (because I blocked with it)

So with that said, both tables look similar, and you could merge them:
20 weapon breaks/jams (breaking should require DC check)
19 weapon dropped
18 character slips/stumbles
17-3 no effect
2 character hurts himself during an attack (1-2hp)
1 weapon gets stuck in something while attacking

Roll on this table for each character, before their turn and incorporate the effect into their result. 1 & 2 only happen if the character makes an attack. 18-20 get used by the GM on that character in the most applicable moment (possibly during the monster's turn to describe the effect).


Janx

 

[jstater]

I like simplicity, so I don't use charts. Instead, when a character fumbles on a natural "1", all opponents threatening them get an attack of opportunity. In addition, they have to make a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid dropping their weapon. That's it. I suppose it could be more "realistic", but I prefer the abstract and streamlined, especially in combat.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

fumbles don't happen.

I've never hurt myself while chopping down a tree. The most that has happened is that the axe deflects while splitting logs, and the flat has hit my leg, because I deflected it. The fact that I wear boots (and adventurers wear armor) makes real injury less likely.

I've never hurt myself while beating someone up

Excellent points. I fired hundreds of .22 rounds when I was a kid and never hit myself or anybody near me on the firing range. Same for bows. I haven't been in a fight in many many years, but I've certainly never seen a boxer (for example) punch himself in the head. "Injure self" in the sense of a twisted ankle is plausible, "hit self" is not. And, although using a weapon is different, I've never seen a baseball player hit himself with the bat hard enough to cause injury - though bats do slip out of grips once every few thousand swings, so "disarm self" could be a possibility on extremely rare occasions.

That brings up the other point on fumbles - the frequency. 1 in 20 swings is WAY too many if you are proficient in the weapon. 1 in 400 (a 1 followed by a 1) might be reasonable, as long as you had sane fumble events.

What's important is making sure that Sunder, Disarm, and Trip remain useful and accomplish their results more often than fumbles do. If the PCs need to get the Unholy Axe out of the Blackguard's hands, the optimal strategy should be to try to disarm him - not to buff AC, fight defensively, and wait for him to roll a 1.

 

[Ice man]

first off thanks to all of you who posted a reply. I just thought i would put up a response to those who don't see the reasoning behind a "fumble". I am not intending this a a flame attack. Personally, i believe in using a fumble mechanic, because i believe that fumbles do happen.

the boxer in the ring is fighting on a smooth level surface, against one opponent without the frantic "one of us is gonna die here" fight for your life response. Even with these advantages boxers still slip, stumble and occasionally break bones in their hands. A wild swing, or an off balance swing will usually be greeted with a sharp counter punch, the equivalent to an AoO. And yes, some boxers do make a living by being primarily a counter puncher, capitalizing on their opponents mistakes. Imagine the effects with obstacles, blood or water slicks on the ground, poor lighting and other detritus about.

in the case of the hundreds of .22 rounds; not firing into a melee, the gophers don't shoot back, your rifle is the product of @500 years of improvement of the very primitive fire arms that the average d&d campaign would have (if any), probably not shooting moving targets, weapon is not likely to have been exposed to battlefield or adventuring conditions for an extended period of time. The hunting that i did as a young man (now an old fart) i did have the occasional ricochet (none close, thank god), some rounds were duds and would not fire, and every so often the action would jam. Yes, as a recreational shooter these were very rare occurences but they do happen...

I do intend to give a saving throw for anyone rolling a nat 1 to reduce the frequency of using the chart, but i am still going to have a chart and use it. With that said i will keep in mind the advice and comments from everyone who kindly offered suggestion and i do thank you for your time and ideas.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Ice Man, I don't take your response as a flame. We have different perspectives.
But I stand by these three points:
1) "Injure self" is not the same as "hit self." The latter is less plausible and, in my opinion, unnecessarily humiliating to skilled characters. Unless you're using some of the double weapons, in which case you asked for it. The *only* cinematic character that I can ever recall hitting himself with his own weapon was an Ewok in Return of the Jedi. Not Inigo Montoya, not Aragorn, not Conan, not Robin Hood. "Injure self" is not so bad, opening oneself up for an AOO is entirely reasonable, and dropping a weapon is possible. But "hit self" is just a bad idea (and even worse if you apply precision-based damage such as specialization to the hit)
2) A frequency of 1 in 20 is way too high. 1 in 400 (a 1 followed by a 1 on a "confirm" roll) is better. Or, as an alternative, characters should have the option of choosing the feat "no fumbles" (assign a BAB +8 prereq if you want).
3) It is not fun to beat the BBEG because he fumbled his weapon. It is fun to beat him through the PCs skill, not through his incompetence

The boxing reference you cite - the opponent could well counterattack once his foe has shifted from "total defense" or "fighting defensively" to "normal attack" or "all-out attack." That would fit the image you present, but it isn't a fumble.
And, as for the .22, there are many situations where a PC could be firing a crossbow (thousands of years of development) at axe-throwing orcs (who are too far away to hit him in return) and not firing into melee. In other words, a PC could be in a situation about as advantageous as I was as a kid shooting at paper targets. I never shot myself in the foot then; it would seem insane for a PC - even an F1 is an elite warrior - to do so.

But, I know you wanted concrete advice for a fumble table, so:
Replace "hit self with weapon" to "injure self for 1d4 subdual"
Introduce a feat to ignore chance of fumble
Fumbles occur on a natural 1 followed by a confirmation roll (1d20+BAB+Dex bonus vs. DC 7, second natural 1 is automatic confirm)