D&D 4E Fun to die in 4e?

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One of the phrases we hear over and over from 4e designers regarding choices is "______ isn't fun."

It isn't fun to have to retire the whole party for the night because the single fight (that was fun) drained all of the party's healing. Save or die effects aren't fun. The list goes on.

But an an article from Wired about Halo 3 had a sidebar that intrigued me, particularly in light of all the RPG design thinking we've all been doing around the 4e announcement.

The Science
Blood, Guns, and Research

While Bungie is using science to make better games, researchers are learning more and more about gameplay itself. Among the findings so far:

· It's just as fun to die. A group of Finnish scientists wired gamers with skin meters, cardiac monitors, and facial electromyographs and found that getting killed in a game produces the same positive emotions as beating an opponent or completing a level.

· Fellowship matters. Researcher Jonas Heide Smith ran a study with 19 gamers and discovered that even hyper competitive players tend to help others. Desire for fairness in play, it seems, is as strong as the desire to win.

· It's OK to cheat — a little. In 24 interviews with gamers, researcher Mia Consalvo discovered that "a majority of game players cheat" — though they also have strict social codes governing what's acceptable. Consulting a game guide: cool. Using auto-aim software to target opponents: uncool.

· Games are good practice. A study in the February 2007 issue of Archives of Surgery found that laparoscopic surgeons who excel at videogames make 47 percent fewer errors and work 39 percent faster than their peers.
— C.T.

Good to know about laparoscopic surgeons and cheating gamers, but I'm really interested in the "fun to die" aspect of the game.

The 3e encounter design (one monster at the party's CR, repeat x 4 then rest) was balanced to provide scaling challenge without the constant threat of death. But after watching the way people actually played D&D, they saw bigger fights, with more going on, and interpreted this as a call for . . . bigger fights with more going on.

Hence, the new encounter paradigm (one monster per PC).

But something about this otherwise great idea nagged me, and when reading the article quoted above, I got it: it's not about the size of the dog in the fight, it's about the lethality of that dog.

What I think I'm looking for when I play and when I DM is a strong sense of legitimate risk; I want to know that there is a chance that if we go A Door Too Far (apologies to Cornelius Ryan), it's dead hero time.

In fact, if we're exceptionally dumb, or fail to adequately prepare, or do our intel gathering, or any one of the myriad of ways my PCs have thrown their lives away over the years, we might have ourselves a bona-fide TPK.

Now, I don't think this issue of lethality is entirely in the designers' hands-- it's ultimately a DM and player choice, but it struck me that maybe my Killer DM isn't as big of a bastard as I've thought.

It's fun to die, and I'm hopeful that 4e will take this into account.

 

[delericho]

You know, I hadn't really considered that before, but on reflection it's absolutely right. Many of the best gaming experiences my group have had in the last few years have featured PC death, and at least two have been TPKs.

I guess it is fun to die... occasionally.

 

[IanB]

As long as making a new character at the appropriate level is faster than 3E. I don't mind getting killed at all except for the possible huge long delay while new characters are made.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, sometimes it is fun for a character to die.

That's why characters only die in my games if the player CHOOSES for it to happen.

 

[Templeton580]

*

 

[Wik]

The most recent PC death in my campaign (a 10th level warmage getting killed in one round from poisoned arrows!) was met with the player gonig "huh" for a moment, and then breaking out into a grin before he popped open the PHB and made a new character.

My brother is notorious for enjoying the deaths of his characters. It's actually kind of funny.

 

[an_idol_mind]

In a video game, death is no big deal because your guy respawns within 10 seconds. The big problem with death in D&D is that unless it's a total party kill, the player whose character dies is going to be out of the game and bored for a while. Older editions of the game, particularly basic D&D, got around this by making it very easy to whip up a new character. Your PC dies, you spend 15 minutes out of game to make a new character, then you get written in as a newcomer. Character creation is much longer in 3rd edition, which means a player who loses a PC might not be back until next session -- especially if the group is mid- to high-level, because then you go and buy a ton of gear rather than just taking a starting package. If 4th edition can reduce the time needed to whip up a PC, then death will no longer be as big of a deal, because the guy who loses his character isn't going to have to spend an hour or more putting a new one together.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Nice link, cntxt-tease.

Since you seem to have so much time for posting these days-- and don't get me wrong, it's great to have you back-- how's about you fix all the illustration links?

 

[(contact)]

(I read your thread title like a newspaper headline proclaiming the bitter end: "FUN TO DIE IN 4E!" As in, all the fun will soon be dead. I'm glad it wasn't one of those threads. )

FUN TO DIE IN 4e
Skip Carol, boy reporter

Game World News has learned that the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons is aimed squarely at obliterating any fun that previous editions might have let slip through the cracks.

"When I go around to conventions, and see people playing our game and enjoying themselves, a small part of me dies every time," Wizards of the Coast lead designer Rob Heinsoo said last week.

"Along with Merls and Wyatt, we've determined that if this game turns out to be fun, it won't be because of lack of trying!"

Internet reaction to this news was mixed-- many posters on ENWorld claimed to have knowledge of this design direction dating back to 1989, and the release of Second Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

"WOTC HATS TEH FUN!" myztik_99 posted in a recent diatribe. "AN THAT IS WHY YUO WILL NEVAR SEE CARAKTERS LIKE DRAKE DARKNITE AGAIN. 3e YOU CANT KILL THE GODS AND WTF IS UP WITH THAT?????????"

 

[(contact)]

Nice link, cntxt-tease.

Since you seem to have so much time for posting these days-- and don't get me wrong, it's great to have you back-- how's about you fix all the illustration links?

How about I compile them for you?