"Functional Equivalent" to Prestige Classes

[Knight Otu]

So they really aren't needed to be a class after all... just a bunch of special abilities with high-level prerequisites and some sort of progression.

That's similar to what I suspect will be. It seems there are several things that are combined under the header of "Xth - level powers." Remember the talk of a 10th level dwarven fighter with the "Friend of the Earth" power that can do something no other 10th level fighter can do? Seems to me, classes gain a power at each or specific levels. That power can be a class power, or a different power.
For example, if we have an Elf Wizard, he can gain Wizard powers, Elf powers, and unique Elf Wizard powers. If the Elf Wizards advanced high enough and qualifies for, say, the Archmage prestige powers, he adds those to the repertoire he can choose from. If somehow the Elf Wizard becomes a Lich (however that may work in 4E), he also adds Lich powers and Lich Wizard powers to his choosable repertoire. I suppose this can be expanded to include Regional powers, Weapon powers, Spell School powers, or anything, really.

 

[Nyeshet]

I like the idea of talent trees replacing PrCs, but I wonder how that will work for PrCs meant to patch rather than specialize. For instance, what about PrCs such as Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, and so forth. Will a Talent Tree be available that will grant 2/3 casting to a Fighter? Or another that expands the wizard's spell options to include divine magic?

Recall also that each of the classes fits into a "role," yet most patch PrCs dealt with combinations that - in 4e - would seem to ride the edge between two roles. That would seem to - if not defeat the purpose - then surely confuse the issue of roles that the creators of 4e see as so important. Thus I wonder whether any attempt will be made to create such patch / role bending / altering / fusing talent trees. Somehow I doubt it, which leaves me wondering how they will deal with those archtypes that specifically would fall into / require such multiclassing? Perhaps they have developed a new form of multiclassing such that mere multiclassing - rather than PrC / talent tree - will be enough to allow for such a class concept? We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Driddle]

A thing to note is that BAB, ST, skill points, hit dice, and +1 spellcasting level do not really define a prestige class.

What makes a prestige class different from the others is the special abilities, including the occasional specific spells list (but IIRC it's something more in the early supplements).

The level-based normal stuff is derived as a consequence, more based on thinking what base class is more likely to take the PrCl, and then deciding the BAB etc. in terms of "how much you want the base class to lose/gain when you enter the PrCl".

So they really aren't needed to be a class after all... just a bunch of special abilities with high-level prerequisites and some sort of progression.

You get points for seeing the functional effects beneath the facade. Kudos.
Don't forget, though, the (often somewhat goofy) descriptive text that go along with the class description. At least a few roleplayers will still want some story justification for why they get certain "prestige" abilities.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I always thought most PRCs would function better as feats
If they make them work as talent trees or something similar I'll probably start liking the PRC concept again.
They'll essentially be special abilities that only members of certain organizations can learn or special abilities that only a master teacher to pass on to a pupil.

At least I hope they work like that, have to wait and see.

 

[pweent]

One of my big hopes on hearing the 4e announcement was that prestige classes would be gone. I was initially disappointed to hear that that wouldn't be the case, but I'm also getting the sense that prestige classes will be handled by something along the lines of talent trees, which sounds good. Of course in the long run it won't stop the proliferation of talent trees or whatever, some of which will no doubt have b0rkenation potential. But I'm hoping it will at least simplify matters a bit.

 

[airwalkrr]

You may recall that they said that when you take a "prestige class" in 4E you continue to advance in your class. For example, if you take the "frenzied berserker" prestige class you'll still advance in your barbarian class.

IMHO that sounds f-ing awesome. I've been saying they should have done that in 3e for years.

 

[ChaosShard]

That's similar to what I suspect will be. It seems there are several things that are combined under the header of "Xth - level powers." Remember the talk of a 10th level dwarven fighter with the "Friend of the Earth" power that can do something no other 10th level fighter can do? Seems to me, classes gain a power at each or specific levels. That power can be a class power, or a different power.
For example, if we have an Elf Wizard, he can gain Wizard powers, Elf powers, and unique Elf Wizard powers. If the Elf Wizards advanced high enough and qualifies for, say, the Archmage prestige powers, he adds those to the repertoire he can choose from. If somehow the Elf Wizard becomes a Lich (however that may work in 4E), he also adds Lich powers and Lich Wizard powers to his choosable repertoire. I suppose this can be expanded to include Regional powers, Weapon powers, Spell School powers, or anything, really.

I love the sound of that!!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Actually that was one of the quotes that made me think "prestige classes" will be talent trees. If "frenzied berserker" is now a talent tree available to the barbarian class, then to progress through the frenzied berserker tree you'll have to level up as a barbarian.

Right, and future supplements could publish additional talent trees instead of PrCs.

 

[Nyeshet]

I always thought most PRCs would function better as feats.

There are a few PrCs that seem like they could work this way. For example, in Complete Psionic, two of the PrCs for soulknives could have been reduced to just a couple feats each. One basically just granted the mind blade positive energy so it did more damage to undead. Why not just make a feat of that? The other allowed a mind blade to be 'thrown' 100 ft instead of the standard 30 ft and later on granted another ability for thrown mind blades as I recall: again why not just replace it with two feats? In both instances five class levels are wasted to gain the equivalent of just a feat or two.

But there are other PrCs that worked (sometimes well, sometimes poorly) as patch PrCs, and there were a few that could not have worked well as a set of feats because feats are not gained every level, or because they removed a level of casting for two or three specials or something to that effect. Also, would you really want PCs to be able to gain energy resistance, natural armor, divine grace (cha to saves), and so forth as feats? Yet some PrCs granted such - often when good thematic reasons (elemental specialization, paladin esque focusing of class, etc).

 

[Squire James]

Well, I could see a "Mystic Theurge" kind of talent to be one that grants certain Wizard spells to a Cleric, or vice-versa. You wouldn't have 2 sets of spells, just one set that covers a few more bases than usual. So you can very well have a Wizard that can heal people - if they're willing to pass on several other equally-juicy possibilities to do so!