Game complexity...

[T. Foster]

I've said it many times before and since the topic keeps coming up I'll say it again: TSR had it right in the early-mid 80s with two parallel D&D lines: the "Classic" (i.e. Basic/Expert) game suitable for kids, beginners, and casual players, and the Advanced game for the experienced hardcore fans. Blurring the line between these (by piling on complexity and specific setting-flavor to the ostensibly simple and generic Classic game, and simultaneously stripping complexity and specific flavor out of the Advanced game) and eventually dropping the Classic version altogether was a huge mistake -- AD&D (and, make no mistake, 3E dropped the "A" from the name but is still a clear descendent of the AD&D line) has never been suitable for beginners or casual play, and still isn't.

If WotC are serious about growing the audience of the game, they absolutely need to bring back something analogous to the old Classic D&D game -- not a "play once and throw away" ripoff like the recent Basic sets, but an actual complete stand-alone game.

 

[kensanata]

It worked for me

We came back to D&D after a 15 year hiatus. The rules lawyers and powergamers loved it, the others groaned inwardly, but we all managed to settle in and we've been playing with the three core books + extra monster manuals for a year and we're still loving it. Recently we started using prestige classes from the DMG, and one of my players has asked me about races from the monster manual. Maybe these things will become important eventually, maybe not. And we've introduced at least two people to D&D on the way.

Thus, my own experience indicates that 3rd ed. was not quite over the top, yet, because it is essentially modular. You don't have to use more than the three core books, and your DM can choose not to grapple, sunder, trip, and disarm unless the players start using it, and you can play with or without a battlemap, etc. It is still possible to introduce newbies to the game.

(But not as easy as it was with the red box where newbies could learn the game on their own.)

 

[mhensley]

"Games, however, are always formal. The historical trend in games has shown that when a new genre of game is invented, it follows a trajectory where increasing complexity is added to it, until eventually the games on the market are so complex and advanced newcomers can't get unto them- the barrier of entry is too high. You could call this the jargon factor because it is common to all formal systems. Priesthoods develop terms enter common usage, and soon only the educated few can hack it."

... hmmm, sound familiar?

I've always thought of this as the Squad Leader syndrome. It started out as a great game that was fairly easy to get into, but they kept adding on rule after rule until it would be easier to read a physics textbook.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I've always thought of this as the Squad Leader syndrome. It started out as a great game that was fairly easy to get into, but they kept adding on rule after rule until it would be easier to read a physics textbook.

Squad leader is a great example of complexity killing the game. It became too complicated for it's own IN group of players.

 

[Wik]

I'm agreeing with Mr. Foster on this one. BECMI was a great game, and it was something I used to use to introduce people to D&D.

If we had a single person who wanted to play, we'd keep up with our 2e game. But any time I had a group to introduce, it was time to dig out BECMI.

Of course, I was younger, and I had the idea that "Basic = For Stupid People", and loved the fact that my gmae of choice was "Advanced". Nowadays, I miss my BECMI books (I only ever had basic and expert, but still), and wish I could get ahold of them.

Someone should make a BECMI OSRIC, so I can run Keep on the Borderlands again.

 

[jeffh]

By contrast, pretty much all of the introductory material put out in the WotC era has been fairly lame; the introductory set doesn't look like it could hold a group's attention for one session, let alone months. Nor does it contain the material necessary to run even a brief campaign; you pretty much have to graduate to the full $90 rulebook set, with all it's complexities, after the first adventure is completed. Not exactly an easy way in, though I can understand how it makes sense for a business point of view- to a point.

This is all true but misses the biggest problem (IMO) with the introductory materials WotC has offered. In my experience, and I've introduced a lot of people to this hobby over the years, the single biggest thing that gets people interested in D&D is the ability to create your own character. That's the whole point for a lot of people, and a big part of the attraction for nearly everyone. And WotC's introductory products have been missing that. Moronic!

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I really dislike thread-jacking, but since it is related...

Someone should make a BECMI OSRIC, so I can run Keep on the Borderlands again.

I believe it only covers the "BE" part of "BECMI", but Labyrinth Lord is what you're looking for I think. You can find it here:
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm

 

[Wik]

I really dislike thread-jacking, but since it is related...



I believe it only covers the "BE" part of "BECMI", but Labyrinth Lord is what you're looking for I think. You can find it here:
http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.htm

Wow, cool! Thanks.

 

[Treebore]

Read a book my folks gave me recently: "A Theory of Fun for Game Design" by Ralph Koster.

The book is an enjoyable look at game theory from a video/computer game designer. There are a number of insights on games in general (regardless of media) and a number of points that apply to RPGs so very much.

from page 136:

"Games, however, are always formal. The historical trend in games has shown that when a new genre of game is invented, it follows a trajectory where increasing complexity is added to it, until eventually the games on the market are so complex and advanced newcomers can't get unto them- the barrier of entry is too high. You could call this the jargon factor because it is common to all formal systems. Priesthoods develop terms enter common usage, and soon only the educated few can hack it."

... hmmm, sound familiar?

Yeah, it sounds familiar. Its the largest part of why I moved to C&C. The game will only be as complex as I want it to be.

 

[Intellifilter]

Careful. The Moderatron 2000 still sifts through keywords on these forums and has no concept of context.

Moderatron 2000 was imperfect and has been sterilized.

Shall I repair the Mark unit?