Game Pricing

[Hard8Staff]

Oh, and one more thing.

There'd be no need to raise the price of current RPG products to give designers the higher salaries. All that would be needed is for half the d20 products and companies to disappear.

If KenzerCo or Mongoose or FFG went under, we'd leave a void that others could fill with their gaming dollars. If enough of the herd were culled, the survivors could make a decent living.

that being said, realirty is that even when some go under, many more come out of hiding with the next great adventure/supplement/game. It takes about 3 years for a company to get "weeded out". That equates to the time it takes for so much depression and realization over being poor to hit that they give up and go off to make a lot more somewhere else. The really thick-headed/dense ones stick around longer for more abuse (9 for us!). Praise from gamers keeps us coming back for more abuse.

 

[Wicht]

A game designer should make a bare-assed minimum of $30K/yr. and he ought to get more than that if he's any good.

The problem with this sort of thinking is it does not deal in economic realities. It does not matter what a person thinks he should make. What matters is that he is in an occupation where someone else is willing to pay him that rate. In this case, we the RPG consumer, through the amount we buy dictate what a RPG writer or publisher can make. A publisher simply can not make more money than is coming in through sales no matter how much they feel the should make. A publisher can attempt to alter the revenue through increasing the quality or quantity produced or through attracting new customers. He can also attempt to raise the price for the product and hope that the amount generated thus increases. Personally I think the key to success in this particular market is not higher pricing which will drive many of us into making fewer purchases, but innovation and the production of material that captures new consumers. Until the consumer base for RPGs increases IMO writers/publishers in the field will not substantially increase their income no matter how they price their products.

 

[RyanD]

Frankly, it's not currently possible because competitors will lower price to undercut and hopefully outsell their competitors.

I guess my response is: "Except that the strategy doesn't work".

Publishers think it will, but there's no evidence that price sensitivity is more important than other critical factors in what triggers the "buy" response in game customers.

I'd argue that higher priced goods which reflect that higher price in better quality design, editing, art, layout and production values will essentially always outsell cheaper competitors within the same genre/game category.

(I suspect that in fact two products of essentially the exact same quality level will have virtually identical sales patterns regardless of which is cheaper provided the difference isn't material - say $5 or so on a $30 or less product).

And to answer the question of what a designer should make: whatever the market will bear. Personally, I think $35k is in order for beginning designers, $60k for really good ones. Guys that run companies should get six figures.

Dave Kenzer

Amen my brother.

 

[d20Dwarf]

I guess my response is: "Except that the strategy doesn't work".

Publishers think it will, but there's no evidence that price sensitivity is more important than other critical factors in what triggers the "buy" response in game customers.

I agree wholeheartedly, now if we could just get publishers to all play by the rules that such logic would dictate, it wouldn't create the market reality that Dave is talking about.

Unfortunately I think the d20 license has opened the door to many publishers that wouldn't be around otherwise, and it is exacerbating the problem. The flood of low quality products, I think, also has an effect on the consumer. If only high quality publishers were involved, maybe the consumer wouldn't be so leery at paying more money for larger, higher-quality books.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

yeah, but can you shell out $30 for an adventure, or $40 per sourcebook? i'm willing to bet you can't for a sustained period of time. and that's what would have to happen to pay game designers the amount of money you propose. i would also submit that comparing console game designers with rpg game designers is comparing apples to oranges. two totally different products, despite their perceived similarity.

Adventure prices can be as low as you like, designers have mentioned before they barely make money at any price because only one person, the DM, buys them. Even sourcebooks get bought mostly by the DM or one player who will use it. The critical component is the main rule book, Players Hand Book, or whatever since you sell 4-5 of those to a group. A group doesnt need to buy ANY book for a sustained period of time. The publisher sells a book to a player and then supports more PHB sales by writing support material. Upping the cost of the PHB has a much larger effect on income.

In a way this makes the d20 licese genious. WotC wrote the main item that generates revenue then left it to the other companies to scratch out a living supporting WotC sales.

 

[jasper]

TIPPING is good. If you think the developers are NOT making enough. Next time at a con give $5 and thank you .
RPG like most limit market hobby will have to sell their labour/ideas for least be cause the market won't support a higher cost.

More people have playstation/n64 that the phb or dmg.

 

[drnuncheon]

The flood of low quality products, I think, also has an effect on the consumer. If only high quality publishers were involved, maybe the consumer wouldn't be so leery at paying more money for larger, higher-quality books.

I know that I've gotten picky about my purchases, and more and more go to the people I feel I can 'trust' (GR, FFG, and WOTC, among others) to put out quality material. I'd probably pay more than what they charge currently. (Oh crud, who am I responding to again?)

There are other companies who I buy/not buy on a per-book basis (Bastion, Mongoose). Bastion's books are on the edge of what I'll buy for the price range - only if they look like they'll be very useful do I want to drop the $25 on one.

Most of my other purchases are one-offs. I'll be looking at the Kalamar Player's Guide to see how useful it will be in non-Kalamar games, I will buy as many Counter Collections as FDP puts out, I pick up the very occasional Scarred Lands product.

J

 

[King_Stannis]

...Unfortunately I think the d20 license has opened the door to many publishers that wouldn't be around otherwise, and it is exacerbating the problem. The flood of low quality products, I think, also has an effect on the consumer. If only high quality publishers were involved, maybe the consumer wouldn't be so leery at paying more money for larger, higher-quality books.

and who will determine which of those products is high quality, and which is low? you are basically telling us that we the consumers don't know the high quality products from the low quality products. and i'm telling you that that is insulting. i've heard products get torn apart by "reviewers" on the internet that i have loved. one man's trash is another's treasure. never before has there been this current situation where anyone can make products for the most popular RPG in the world. yet ryan d. is ready to call the situation broken after only a year and a half. we hear talk about the talent we're all missing out on (as if there was a CONSTANT flood of fantastic products in the 10+ years of 2e D&D).

let's get down to brass tacks, though...in your world there would probably be a very small number of companies making D20 rpg products, right? that way you could charge what you will, competition be damned. i'd be interested to hear who would make your list and who you would exclude. who produces the high quality stuff, and who produces the low?

pardon me if i don't get all teary eyed while you fellows talk about price-fixing.

 

[d20Dwarf]

and who will determine which of those products is high quality, and which is low? you are basically telling us that we the consumers don't know the high quality products from the low quality products. and i'm telling you that that is insulting. i've heard products get torn apart by "reviewers" on the internet that i have loved. one man's trash is another's treasure.

I think consumers can tell the difference, this is egregiously twisting my words to somehow marginalize my argument. I am no more elitist than you are populist, so let's get off that track.

Obviously there are different tastes, but nobody likes poor quality. I'm not talking about what people will tolerate, I'm talking about raising the bar across the board so that consumers can be confident in what they buy.

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Unfortunately I think the d20 license has opened the door to many publishers that wouldn't be around otherwise, and it is exacerbating the problem. The flood of low quality products, I think, also has an effect on the consumer. If only high quality publishers were involved, maybe the consumer wouldn't be so leery at paying more money for larger, higher-quality books.

And who's money would they use? The consumer will want to buy a value, sure . But even if you were to eliminate all of the poor quality product out there it still wouldn't justify the costs of most of the high quality products! Maybe this is a bit of a "catch 22". I believe that people should get paid well for their talents and skills. Maybe the publishers in general need to look at the way they make decisions. I'm sure they could save quite a bit if they made their books soft not hard backed (OH MY). Most of them don't need to h/b. Maybe giving the consumer a discount if they use the publishers online store (I know this may hurt some retailers, but that's only if they're not selling"Magic the Gathering" or "Pokimon"). Don't the retailers get these products at a discount? They couldn't make money if they didn't. I'm sure there are many ways to put out a product that people will want that is affordable and that the publishers can make some money on. Until then, don't disregard our complaints and look down at us (I think maybe some in your business does.) We are the consumer. We buy the products. We play the games. We know what we want. We are important to the suvival of RPGs and to the publishers. AND WE ARE NOT STUPID! Thanx for listening......If you are?