Game Pricing

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: You people slay me

What if the average gamer is already well take care of? Consider, honestly, that the AVERAGE gamer (and there are millions of them!) only needs the PH, and maybe the MM and DMG. That's it. People on the high end of "average" might subscribe to Dragon or Dungeon, which offer value for your money that no small press publisher can compete with, period; people on the low end might not own ANY books, and just make due with a shared PH at gaming night.

The problem is that everyone is trying to appeal to the average gamer -- and failing, because it's clear that the average gamer DOES NOT NEED TO BUY ANYTHING MORE AGAIN EVER.

This is true, but anyone who has a hobby, no matter how much money they make, they want to try to keep at least somewhat current with that hobby.

 

[Ranger REG]

Because some people really can only afford to spend $10. I don't care how great a value something is, if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. Many people have to decide between gassing up the car and paying the electric bill this week instead of next. Some of the responses to this have been "then don't play RPGs if you don't have the money!" My response is: I hope you go through some hard economic times to give you some perspective. What, people of lower incomes should be frozen out of RPGs? A subtle example of the class system at work.

Y'know, RPGs and video/computer games aren't that similar. Sure, you pay a lot for a game for Playstation 2 or a computer, but the console or computer takes the place (in many cases) of other people. With RPGs, you need to have other folk in order to play. It's ironic that a type of game based almost completely on the cooperative use of imagination - RPGs - should require such expensive add-ons to play.

Maybe RPG hobby is not a hobby for them. If I can only afford to spend $10 after I paid my bills and fill my fridge and pantry with food to last me a month, then perhaps I should save the money and buy myself a fishing pole. Take up fishing and bring food to the table.

Or buy a ball and play sports, which is also a hobby and a social game.

Honestly, I think that RPG design is NOT a good career choice. But I give credit to anyone who is a game designer going into this venture knowing they won't get paid much. If anything, they'd be lucky to get $10 a month after paying their bills.

As for RPG and videogame, you can buy a console with your own money and play by yourself, or you can pool money with your friends and buy the necessary rulebooks to play a social game of RPG. I don't know about you, but I'd go with the latter method if I was financially strapped.

P.S. If you only have $10 a month and you're 18 and older, you should be more concerned about getting a better career with better pay than spending money on RPG. Just a thought...

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Re: Re: You people slay me

What if the average gamer is already well take care of? Consider, honestly, that the AVERAGE gamer (and there are millions of them!) only needs the PH, and maybe the MM and DMG. That's it. People on the high end of "average" might subscribe to Dragon or Dungeon, which offer value for your money that no small press publisher can compete with, period; people on the low end might not own ANY books, and just make due with a shared PH at gaming night.

The problem is that everyone is trying to appeal to the average gamer -- and failing, because it's clear that the average gamer DOES NOT NEED TO BUY ANYTHING MORE AGAIN EVER. Perhaps one can appeal to the "average" by giving away your products to them for free, because they have no need to buy anything. That does not seem to me to be much of a business plan, and even then it's tough. (E.g., the average gamer has never downloaded any one of the many free PDFs from any D20 publisher website!! I'll bet all the downloads of all the D20 PDFs in existence, available from anyone besides WotC, do not add up to 10% of the sales of the 3E PHB.)

On the other hand, there may be a market in selling products to the UNUSUAL gamer, that is to say, the one that has money and is interested in spending it! Therein lies a business plan. To make the plan work, you have to charge the right amount of money.

It may be that publishers, thinking they are appealing to the average gamer, have actually only been selling to the unusual gamer -- and fundamentally shortchanging themselves because they misunderstand what their market really is.

The unusual gamer may be very interested in that $100 cool-enough-to-die-for product, which no one has ever offered her because they were too busy trying to kiss up to the vast pool of average gamers who simply will never want their offerings at any price.

Something to think about.

-----

Different topic: Lady Dragon, thanks for the vote of interest in Occult Lore. I hope we live up to your expectations!

Again, another far removed polisher!

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Re: Re: Re: You people slay me

Again, another far removed polisher!

Wow. Rarely has a quote spoken more eloquently for itself.

Patrick Y.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

P.S. If you only have $10 a month and you're 18 and older, you should be more concerned about getting a better career with better pay than spending money on RPG. Just a thought...

I agree. This is a luxury hobby. Money can be spent elsewhere or saved to improve one's lot in life. And its not like there isn't a wealth of free stuff on the web (which is free if one belongs to the right library)

 

[JohnNephew]

Re: Re: Re: You people slay me

Again, another far removed polisher!

LOL! I'm not sure if you're saying I'm one of the far-removed "butt-polishers" trying to kiss up to "gaming gods," or a far-removed "publisher" (mis-spelled) who doesn't understand the plight of underfunded gamers...?

Sigh.

Look, I empathize if you have a limited gaming budget. Believe me, I know all about limited budgets. I'm just saying, if you have little or no money to spend on games -- you're not my market. I wish you were, and hope your job doubles your paycheck real soon now (and you spend the difference on RPGs!), but trying to lower my prices to meet your budget only means I'm NOT getting the amount of money I need from the people who CAN pay. E.g., the recent Computer Science graduates who, according to the data I recently read, are even in the recessionary environment looking at $50,000 average starting salaries when hired fresh out of college.

What I want to see more of, in a more prosperous market, is a range of pricing. For example, eBay is a godsend for anyone on a budget. Look at all the cheap game stuff you can get on eBay! eBay means that retailers can sell their extra stock on the cheap to price-sensitive gamers (as well as nearly-price-insensitive collectors on the rare items) all over the world. It also means that gamers can sell the items that didn't meet their needs.

I hate having to spend big bucks on toner cartridges. So I go to eBay, and watch for good prices on the specific cartridges we need (so I always have a full spare or two), and as a result pay 25%-50% of retail. Some of these are liquidations of overstock, some are people who have extra cartridges after their printer broke down or was sold, some are aggressively priced remanufactured items. Saving $50+ apiece, it's worth my time!

If you want to get games on the cheap, you just have to do more work, whether it's downloading and printing free PDF materials (there's a TON of it! and a lot of it is really GOOD! -- if I were a gamer on a budget, I don't think I'd ever have to spend a dime after I bought the three core books), or watching for the items you really want to come up on eBay or through a used retailer (online, local store, at a convention, etc.). The savings from looking for deals should easily pay for your time (since they're not taxed like hourly wages!).

Let me give you an example. Our Touched by the Gods book. Have you bought it yet? If not, we have damaged copies on our website right now for $12 (scroll down to the bottom of the page). Still haven't bought it? Well, my guess is that if we had charged half the price we did, we would not have sold any more copies -- if I'm wrong, then we should be selling a LOT of copies now at the $12 price ($23.95 is SRP); in fact, I think we've sold 2 or 3. Know what that means? Lowering the price does not increase sales. I think we probably would have sold the same number at full price if we weren't offering these dented-and-dinged copies. Most of the people who didn't buy this product are simply not going to buy it at any price; it's just not of interest to them. Cutting the price in the hope of reaching them is suicidal -- all it means is that I lose money, and then can't publish anything more.

 

[Aaron L]

I think some people need to make a distinction between "evil, greedy, rich game designers milking us for all we're worth" and "barely surviving, working 3 jobs to eat game designers who want to make a living designing RPGs".

 

[nopantsyet]

But sadly, I have learned that (IMO) some people are, really very much remove from the average run-of-the-mill gamer.

the run-of-the-mill, average anything doesn't exist. everybody thinks they are that, regardless of style, income, etc. but if these boards attest to anything its that gamers come in all shapes, sizes, and wallet-types. i'm not rich, i've been scraping by the past two years with a wife in grad school and kid while i try to start a business. gaming is pretty much the only luxury i spend money on. generalizations are irrelevent.

And futher more I feel that many other people are in part compromising some of their true feeling about this industry just to( please forgive the expression) kiss the Gaming Gods butts.

give me a break! on an pseudo-anonymous message board we stand to gain so much by saying we want more high-quality products and we don't mind paying for them? if i say i don't mind paying more money for a better car am i kissing the collective butts of the Car Gods? of course not. you're being ridiculous.

nobody is suggesting that inexpensive products should go away or that they will. several publishers have stated as much. and it's basic principal of market forces. it's why Hyundai and Kia exist in the price range Toyota and Honda used to.

This issue on Pricing is a very good example. <snip> I believe this is a excellent example of people making poor descions and alienating the averge gamer. With that kind of thought your average gamer will be shone that they really don't matter to the Gaming Gods.

are you alienated from driving because Lexus and BMW make cares that cost over $100K? you might not buy one, and that's fine, but i'm sure you don't feel like the auto industry is slighting you.

it's a standard market practice to have bottom-, middle-, and top-shelf product lines. many industries do it and people are constantly amazed that people will spend money on X when they can get Y for less. if you go to a traditional game store, you will find a basic chess set for $15. but they often also carry sets that cost hundreds of dollars. they don't sell them everyday or to everyone who wants to play chess. but there are people who want jade pieces and marble boards.

That only the true believers and hard core collectors are most important.

i game every week. i am very selective about what products i buy, but i don't mind paying good money for a high-quality product. i think that makes me run-of-the mill. (see first paragraph)

the one thing that would get me to spend more total dollars on gaming products is an increase in high-quality products. i am very interested in products that would be a higher level of quality than what is currently available; and i would be willing to pay more for it. i think many game designers are capable of more, and i'm willing to pay more if they do.

i realize not everyone is and that's fine. i like BMWs and jade chess sets, but i'm not going to buy either of them. (at least not anytime in the forseeable future.) but i think they should all be available for those who want them and can afford them.

And It's not really about budgeting my " gaming allowence". I am active in my gaming community. I know all the gaming store owners personally and have from time to time worked at several of them part time. I don't know any of them that would be willing to take a risk with such expensive and limited product. One or two may sell but thats it.

nobody thought toyota could repackage the camry with a different label, mark it up 100%, and sell more than one or two. but there was a gap between the typical luxury car cost (then $50-60K) and the high-end economy cars ($15-20K). so the $35K Lexus was a huge hit and opened up a previously untapped market segment.

i think that's what Ryan is talking about. he thinks a market is there that they're not taking advantage of. you are not that market; that's fine. i am.

game design is not punk rock. success and profit do not discredit it. these gaming gods aren't creating games as a personal favor to us; it's a business. and any business that does not capitalize on an untapped market is stupid.

the gaming stores i frequent will order anything they don't carry on request. and if people start asking for a high-priced product, i'm certain they'll start stocking it pretty darn quick. and if it sells, that's a higher-profit sale, which helps them stay in business.

so if the industry thinks they can make better products, i repeat: bring it on!!! i want better products. i'm willing to pay more for better products.

 

[mac1504]

It's ironic that a type of game based almost completely on the cooperative use of imagination - RPGs - should require such expensive add-ons to play.

That has to be my favorite quote of the month!

ColonelHardisson, you are wise beyond your years.

-mac1504

 

[Nightfall]

Well I honestly told myself "Self: Stay out of it." "Other Self: Oh but I REALLY want to! I think I deserve to!" "Self: No, no, our LG tentancies should outway any personal feelings we have" "Other Self: "Since when have we been LG?" "Self: *long dramatic pause* "Okay you win!"

So here's my other self speaking.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass about the money I spend. My needs and concerns about what I buy are DETAILED by two main factors "Will I like it?" "Will I use it?" If those to criteria are met, I'm happy. Now on to pricing. WotC pricing sucks. I'm supposed to shell out 40 dollars for ONE hardback that MAYBE, if I'm lucky, will get 10% of my use. Does that mean it's a bad thing? In this case yes. So I let others handle that burden. In the growing d20 market, while prices Might rise and fall, what I care about are the PEOPLE behind their products and their ideas. Example: Fast Forward Entertainment. Now I know it's an opinion BUT after all the material I've perused through for them, I can honestly say, it's bad folks. I mean I know I've seen some mediorce products (some by Mongoose but doesn't affect the fact Mongoose HAS made some STELLAR products.) But never anything THIS...lame and crappy. Now take a look at Atlas. I think I can easily say they are one of THE best even though they don't get much ink out there. Course same is true with Thunderhead...but Hal knows I kiss butt alot cause I love my Bluffy! In any case, I know that if I have a question, concern or comment I can GET a decent answer from John Nephew or his nice associate/wife Michelle, BECAUSE they care. I don't believe I can say that about Fast Forward. (I mean has anyone SEEN Jim Ward or talked to him?!! I know I haven't. Jeff Grubb YES, but not this Ward character.)

So in response to all this, I sell out money, money means about as much to me as toliet paper. (I'd still wipe my bottom with it if I had to!) and just make sure you guys in the d20 work keep up the good work on make EXCELLENT products. I don't mind the prices, just make sure I get a great product.

Thank you, I've been entertained and I'll like to thank John again for his insight and I'll be sure to drop in for the EN World Chat (Hopefully I'll get lucky again and win a few prizes! )