Game Pricing

[Abraxas]

Originally posted by Ranger REG
P.S. If you only have $10 a month and you're 18 and older, you should be more concerned about getting a better career with better pay than spending money on RPG. Just a thought...

Hmm...so a lot of game designers should get out of game design and pursue more lucrative careers

originally posted by nopantsyet
it's a standard market practice to have bottom-, middle-, and top-shelf product lines. many industries do it and people are constantly amazed that people will spend money on X when they can get Y for less.

But what differentiates bottom-, middle-, and top shelf RPG products? It can't be quality of writing, or ingenuity of implementation. Would you really want game companies to offer multiple levels of product quality?

1) Bottom....No cover, loose leaf, no editing, no art
2) Midle.......Black and white line drawn cover, some editing (most glaring mistakes fixed), pencil drawings, bound.
3) Top.........Bound hard cover, perfectly edited, profesional full color art.
4) Premium..As Top but extras like higher quality paper, expensive cover materials (leather or cloth), etc.

A few other things

The question has been asked why is a 32 page adventure for $8.95 a good value when a 320 page source book/compilation for $40 is too much (assuming same quality). Could it be that the relative amount of the product that will be used is greater for the 32 page book compared to the 320 page book? As a DM I buy products for idea mines. In general a 320 page source book does not contain 10 times the useable ideas contained in a 32 page adventure. Heck often they don't contain even twice the number of useable bits for me to plunder - so why pay four times as much. Especially when most of that cost seems to be going for the cover, interior art, and extra pages containing campaign specific flavor text - things that don't enhance my gaming experience in the slightest, but may influence the collector types.

Right now there are a number of 64 and 96 page supplements selling for between 14 and 20 dollars. In general I have found they have just as much useful information to me as the 200+ page source books some companies are putting out.

People have mentioned relative hobby costs - such as RPGs vs computer games. I must be in a minority, because I never buy comp games when they first come out. I wait until they hit the cheap racks in 6 months to a year or go buy the ones I want in the used bin. I can't think of the last time I spent more than 20 bucks on a computer game. I can't do the same thing with RPG stuff. In order to get it in nearly new condition you have to get it early or risk it being sold out. After being sold out you generally have three options - by it in less than mint condition (something that doesn't affect comp games), pay for the nearly mint item on an auction (in which case you rarely save money because some collector geek drives the price up above its original cost or the price you get it at + shipping negates any savings) or, wait for a reprint which according to some things being said here may cost more than the original print.

Personally, I have a price threshold of about $20 dollars. At this price or below I may risk buying something less than totally useful to me. Above this it has to be an outstanding product. Right now the Penumbra D20 price creep is beginning to limit what I buy from that line. I don't even consider things like WoT because of the price and their relative value to me, the same goes for a number of other RPGs (d20 or not) such as Godlike, Hackmaster, Deadlands D20, etc.

If game companies want to try for the true luxury dollar - go for it. Produce two versions - make deluxe editions with leather covers, full color art, expensive bindings, silk book marks, signed and numbered editions and 6 months to a year later make a plain version without all the bells and whistles. That way you can capture the high end dollar from those early adopters that want it now and still capture the low end dollar from those that want it at Walmart prices.

In the end RPG designer may just be a career that will never be very profitable for the majority (much like many other careers in this world). If you want to make lots of money, don't try to get it from me, go into another line of work.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Re: You people slay me

erased because he just ain't worth it.

 

[spacecrime.com]

But what differentiates bottom-, middle-, and top shelf RPG products?

IMHO, professional presentation is like porn. You know it when you see it.

It can't be quality of writing, or ingenuity of implementation. Would you really want game companies to offer multiple levels of product quality?

1) Bottom....No cover, loo, sense leaf, no editing, no art
2) Midle.......Black and white line drawn cover, some editing (most glaring mistakes fixed), pencil drawings, bound.
3) Top.........Bound hard cover, perfectly edited, profesional full color art.
4) Premium..As Top but extras like higher quality paper, expensive cover materials (leather or cloth), etc.

No, I don't think that's what bottom-middle-top is about at all. What you're describing is the difference between lousy product and good product. But as James Ernest proved, cheap doesn't have to mean bad.

Look at cars. Kias and Accents and Corollas are cheap, but they're perfectly decent little cars. They aren't fast or fancy, they don't come with exciting features, but they get you where you want to go. The more expensive cars are just as good at getting you where you want to go, but they've got more features and frills. You can drive them faster on lonely mountain roads, there's leather seats and Onstar, you can fit 8 friends and their surfboards and turn the car into a pickup -- whatever.

Not everyone buys expensive cars -- but a lot of people do, and the profit from expensive cars keeps a lot of companies that also make inexpensive cars in business. All this despite the fact that if you just want to get from here to there, you can do it in a Kia just as easily as in a Porsche.

If cars were like the gaming model you describe above, the low-end car would be missing a wheel, the steering would be crooked, and headlights would be extra. That's a nightmare, and it's a testament to the immature state of the game business that the gaming equivalent of three-wheeled cars are put on the road every year. It's a good thing bad RPGs don't get people killed, because there are some real lemons out there.

So. What's in a low-end game? Well, we can start by looking at what's in the one really successful low-end game company in the business: Cheapass. Cheapass is cheap, but it's always professional. What they make is functional and looks good, even though it uses inexpensive materials and black-and-white design.

Good low-end products need to be playable with a minimum of effort and expense. They need to use standardized parts to minimize time and money spent on manufacturing. They need to be easy for first-time buyers to use -- and unless the company has found a profitable niche selling only low-end product, the product needs to build brand fondness so that the customer can eventually be upgraded to higher-margin products.

Corollas and other first cars do that. Cheapass does that (though they don't really do high-end products.) SJG's new Car Wars might do that; it's too early to tell. Mage Knight and Magic and possibly GW do that very well, not least because CCGs and minis games are self-scaling products. Entry is cheap, quality is high, and you've got lots of incentive to upgrade.

I don't think there is a true professional low-end product in gaming today. The D&D intro kits might be, but after observing sales patterns for a couple of years now I'm skeptical. They're great training tools for kids who are already going to get into full D&D, but I don't think they're complete enough in themselves. The PHB seems to be a better entry into D&D than the intro kit is, but that may because of the network of players surrounding it teaches the game. (As Ryan D has pointed out every once in a while, the player network is a big benefit of D&D.)

I'd characterize most of the professional products being produced today as mid-range products. They do the job, each product has some unique features, but they don't include luxury options that make the experience complete. I actually don't think leather-bound products are high-end. To go back to the car model, buying a leather Call of Cthulhu or a leather Vampire is more like getting a mid-range car with the sporty options than getting an expensive car.

A true high-end/premium product has got to do more than just gussy up the mid-range product a little. I love Ryan's "adventure with everything including miniatures" idea, and I think there are more features to offere beyond a gussied up physical product. For instance, a true high-end RPG might support regular adventure or supplement downloads, a campaign advice hotline, or a free monthly fan magazine for the game. Or let's get a little wild: how about an exclusive club at the local game store -- with free pizza and beer every week? Or an annual convention in Vegas with free room and board?

Those are just the first random ideas that popped into my head. The point is that "real" industries make a lot of money by identifying big spenders and sparing no expense to make them feel good. That might be possible in gaming -- we don't know because we only think we've tried.

cheers,

 

[sword-dancer]

Oh, and one more thing.


If KenzerCo or Mongoose or FFG went under, we'd leave a void that others could fill with their gaming dollars. If enough of the herd were culled, the survivors could make a decent living.

The really thick-headed/dense ones stick around longer for more abuse (9 for us!). Praise from gamers keeps us coming back for more abuse.

Mr Kenzer

I wouldn`t take a bet you get weeded out as long as you hold your Quality Standard like Kok and Geneavue.
BTW when ist KoKPG in Germany?
Are you again at the GAME Essen this year?

There is still one company that seels things cheap. 350+ pg books for 25$, and 120pg books for 8$. It's like I said above, their page count is higher then three other books, but any two of those smaller books costs about 10$ more. And how do I reward this company? I own every book they have every put out. Sure it helps that they are socialible and nice people. Sure it helps that I have never been treated anything short of nice by them. And it helps that their quality of books is high.

Again, we have someone in the industry defending the prices. It's like Office Space when they are called in to defend their jobs. Who isn't going to do their best to make sure they have a job tommorrow and the highest pay scale they can get?

Could you please tell mew the company with that priceline.
I bet i know them only for sure.

Furthermore, I've argued in the past that unlike all other RPGs (which are designed to be sold to people who already play RPGs), D&D really is an "entry level" RPG game. It is a well established strategy in pricing to give people a "positive shock" on price to trigger a buying response. Before a person is an RPG player, they are likely to be substantially far more price sensitive than they are after they fully understand the hobby and the value it delivers. That $20 price point creates "price shock" which can trigger impulse purchases with people who are mildly curious.

.

Mr Dancey
D&D isn`t the only entry RPG,
In Germany i could name Midgard 4ed, not more complicated than D&D IMHO, (Price for 320 pg 50 E), Space Gothic really easy and good rules,DSA the Dark eye(No comment),
WFRP is IMHO the best for amn entry, if the players are mature enough to play in such a bloody background.

At a minimum, to me, that means a product with an SRP of more than $100 that you'd die to own, fantasize about owning, are jealous of those who own, and will sacrifice other areas of your disposable income expenditures to get. (And after it's been proved to be a viable market at $100, I want to see it tested at $200, then $300, etc. until we find out where the ceiling really is.)

CoC German edition, Leather Bound HC 336 pg, 1890-1990 rules, i own because i ´won one in a lottery at a con.
And it was spend by a RPG shop owner, who had opened a new shop in frankfurt/m.
A year before i had spooken with her after feen-con, and she told me it was overpricced 170 -200 DM, about 80 to 100 $.
I spoke with her after this and she told me she hadn´t sold one in the whole year.
The only other i see in a rpg shop,hasn`t sold over a year.
Last thursday i´ve seen it, unsold.
I think 100$ is a bit unreasonable.

Greetings!

Hey Henry, I hear what you're saying. Geez, everything in life has increased in price. If game designers and publishers aren't making enough money--not just to survive--but to prosper, then they'll pack it in, and say forget it. Then, there won't be a gaming industry because no one is willing to pay some modest increases in product cost. In an earlier thread, I made some examples of books that I buy all the time. Hardcover books on History, Philosophy, and Theology usually. They are hardcover, 300-600 pages, maps, full-color, dense text by experts in the field. I feel like I get a bargain when I can get away with one for $25-$40. Many of them are $50 and up, you know? Why should a quality hardcover game book be any different?

I don't mind paying good money for high-quality product. The quality must match the price assigned by the publisher though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I sign it

It s all about a fair price for a product.

Likewise, we're ratching up the pricing on softcovers. A year ago some people complained that $23.95 was too high for Touched by the Gods, as a hardcover 128 pp book. (That struck me as weird, since only $3 extra for HC seems like a wildly good deal. But, everyone compared it to $25 for the Creature Collection and $20 for the PH etc. -- not to what, say, a 128 pp softcover GURPS book went for at the time.) Well, we charged $20.95 on the last 128 pp softcover, and I've bumped our pricing scheme up so the next time we do one it will be $21.95. I probably should just go to $24.95 -- and maybe look at spending some of the extra income on improvements (like color sections, map inserts, or what have you).

Ideally, price increases sneak in unnoticed. A lot of the complaints happen when people experience dissonance -- e.g., holding up a 96 page book (even if it's in color) and contrasting it to a 200+ page hardcover (even if it's in B&W and selling to a much larger audience), both at $25, and feel like something is wrong.

If you show me a D&D d20 Book that is made like a GURPS Book, well researched mwith hard data etc. I may be willing to pay the same, maybe?
On the other hand the GURPS books on my shelf bought for interset, not for play, came about half price from an closing shop.

Art isn`t a major factor for buying for me.
It`s at best a minor one.
OTOH i prefer good, fitting b/W over crappy or unfitting coloured Art every day, and at something b/w fits better.

I have skipped over the Nyambe preview, and it is at last very interesting.
I will look over it, at last, and if it fits MC or style buy it, if the price is reasonable.

Again, another far removed polisher!

R.X.

It`s enough,
No it´s more than enough.

Fact is i buy what i need in my RPG shop and a few other things i don`t need but found interesting or collect.
Mostly by evay or at the GAME Essen

 

[R.X.DIEM]

R.X.

It`s enough,
No it´s more than enough.

But I'm not wrong!

 

[Buttercup]

The unusual gamer may be very interested in that $100 cool-enough-to-die-for product, which no one has ever offered her because they were too busy trying to kiss up to the vast pool of average gamers who simply will never want their offerings at any price.

Exactly. When I go to my local game shop, I don't look at prices. I look at quality. If the product is excellent, I'll buy it. If it looks like crap, I won't. If it's mediocre, I might buy it, if it has some crunchy bits in it that I can use. I count Penumbra titles in the excellent category, along with the Kenzer products.

And if you produce the cool-enough-to-die-for product, I guarantee that I'll pony up. This is my hobby, and I don't mind spending my disposable income on it.

 

[drothgery]

But I'm not wrong!

You've made a lot of demonstrably false generalizations about game designers, the owners of certain gaming industry companies, and about gamers with disposable income.

And you haven't made a case that there are a significant number of people who can afford to buy more than the core books and can't afford or just won't pay $40 for a gaming product they really want.

 

[Crothian]

"Could you please tell mew the company with that priceline.
I bet i know them only for sure. "

Palladiumbooks.

 

[Abraxas]

originally posted by spacecrime.com

A true high-end/premium product has got to do more than just gussy up the mid-range product a little. I love Ryan's "adventure with everything including miniatures" idea, and I think there are more features to offere beyond a gussied up physical product. For instance, a true high-end RPG might support regular adventure or supplement downloads, a campaign advice hotline, or a free monthly fan magazine for the game. Or let's get a little wild: how about an exclusive club at the local game store -- with free pizza and beer every week? Or an annual convention in Vegas with free room and board?

These additional features are just bells and whistles, and bells and whistles are the only things that would allow for an increased price. Fortunately for me, bells and whistles aren't needed to play.

Right now I see things like this;

The PDF products as the bottom shelf items. - low cost, print them yourselves.

The typical softcover book and some hardcover books are the middle shelf. - moderate cost, a product you can hold, and varying degrees of aesthetic quality.

The top shelf products are those that are just fancier versions of the middle shelf products and have extras tacked on - the miniatures idea would be an extra.

It seems to me the only way to capture that high end dollar is to tack on extras - these extras can take one of two forms either changes in the physical quality of the product or in providing additional materials/services. I can't see me, or the people I game with, being willing to pay for those types of RPG products.

All RPG products after the core rules are convenience items. No DM or player ever has to buy another product after obtaining the rule books. RPG items aren't like CCGs or CRPGs. Different copies of the same product don't have different rules that give you an edge vs your character's enemies. You don't need multiple licenses or copies of RPG products to play the game with others.

Actually I can see one other way that might bring in more money, price fixing. RPG companies can get together and jack the prices up until they hit a sales plateau - I have a gut feeling that the plateau may be a lot lower than the game makers/producers think it is...this is, of course, IMO.

 

[Nightfall]

I think we've found a replacement/counterpart for Jack Chick and his cronies to duke it out with.