Game Pricing

[JohnNephew]

Non-leisure items, on the other hand, can have a decidedly higher sticker shock because the consumer needs the item.

Now I understand why I spend most of my budget on necessary items like food, while leisure items like movies are almost free! ;-)

I'm willing to agree that textbooks aren't a good example, because of the captive audience factor. On the other hand, I think that a lot of technical and scholarly texts ARE a good example. If you're a medievalist, you don't have to own every book in the field -- but the ones you choose to buy can easily set you back $60 for a 300-page hardcover. (Just got a catalog in the mail today from the Penn State Univ. Press, and I was leafing through it.)

Hobbies are, in general, pretty expensive. My dad is really into RC planes (gliders, in particular). He says the "must-have" model airplane, that wins all the competitions and stuff, costs $1400. And they have something like an 18-month waiting list. Doesn't that make gaming look cheap?

The thing is, you can get into flying model planes for relatively cheap -- but there's a whole range of price, quality and feature options running up to the $1000+ level. And you can bet the hardcore types who shell out for the high-end have a lot of everything else too. (My dad said one guy on a mailing list mentioned owning THREE of those expensive planes.) Gaming has lots of starter kits, but not as many super-mega-amazing things that only the most devoted will buy and everyone else will envy.

 

[Ashtal]

Eh, I wasn't trying to be condenscending - I was trying to be realistic and put a different face on the low-end consumer.

I think a point that you can't just divorce from this disussion is that stuff, in general, costs more over time. I'm not talking about you and me buying a more expensive book over time. I'm talking about the writing, the art, the layout, the paper, the printing, the labour...all of these things have become more expensive over time. Prices of the books themselves HAVE to be raised over time, because if they aren't, eventually they aren't making enough to make it worth their while. And with print runs so damn tiny for most of this hobby, it's a wonder anything gets made at all.

And for every project that doesn't turn a profit, that's one more nail in the coffin. This is where we start losing companies and designers. That, to me, "Is a bad thing," as there are a lot of smaller companies out there that I would rather see thrive, even if that meant higher costs, then go the way of the do-do.

I'll leave it to the companies to find that happy medium between higher prices and the number of consumers. As companies, that is what they are supposed to do. And if they find that it doesn't work because people stop buying, they will either change their strategy or go do-do on a totally different path.

I'm going to throw in one more example. Short story writing. Do you know the market for short stories offers about the same rate of pay per word that they were offering 50 years ago? Pennies, or less. It's a wonder anyone writes short stories anymore. You're seeing an artform slowly die because people don't want to give the creative forces behind the work enough money to live on. The cost for a thin newsprint booklet of short stories is a lot more expensive than it used to be, but the creators that drive those publications get next to nothing - even though the publication wouldn't exist without the writers writing for an audience who wants to read them. Why shouldn't they be paid more? Paid something even close to livable?

 

[Psion]

At $40 for the epic level handbook, I think we are reaching the limit of expense for books. How many people would pay $50?

Well, if it is any evidence, I didn't pick up CoC d20, despite severe temptation.

I think most instant adventure pamplets were overpriced for what you got at $2.49.

If you do an analysis, you will see that the fewer pages a product has, the more expensive it is per page. Of course "for what you get" on a price per full size page ratio is rather expensive. But as oft times I end up gutting larger adventures and throwing out BS that is extraneous to my game, often these mini-adventures are a significant value.

That said, I think $4.00 is too much for one of these.

Many PDFs are overpriced at $5.

Many? Perhaps. But if it is something you are going to use, $5 isn't a lot to ask. $5 is lunch at BK. Now some are pushing the price up towards $10, which I don't like because you aren't getting the production value of a printed product, and except for adventures, you are probably paying to print it out anyways.

 

[King_Stannis]

To sum up, my overall point is this: if we shouldn't care about low-income gamers (and I understand completely about games being a luxury and how capitalism works; I'm an ardent capitalist), then why should we care about low-income game designers? If we won't cut the low-income gamers slack, why should we cut the designers slack? I'm mainly reacting against the attitude that some gamers have that not only should game companies raise prices, but that they'll have unswerving support for doing so.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, really.

man, this is the exact point i was making to john nephew on the original incarnation of this thread. does anyone really care about the people who make product x or y when they buy it? of course not, so why should rpg's be any different. i think i used the 10 year old girl making shirts in some sweatshop in the far east. consumers will buy in their self interest, and producers will sell in their self interest. hopefully the two can find a happy medium.

 

[Hard8Staff]

I don't suggest that you need to care about low-income designers. All I'm saying is that prices may go up...because WE game designers care about low-income designers! That's not to say that we don't care about low-income gamers or gamers of any type for that matter. We simply need to put food on the table and this obviously requires money.

If faced with losing the job you love or raising prices on the product you love to make and sell, what would YOU do in our place?

It's not a rationalization of any type, just an explanation of the cold, hard reality of the RPG business.

In any case, I'll echo John (again!). I really liked this discussion and appreciate the input of all parties.

Warm regards,

David Kenzer

 

[Sigmund]

Gaming has lots of starter kits, but not as many super-mega-amazing things that only the most devoted will buy and everyone else will envy.

Dwarven Forge

 

[JohnNephew]

I don't suggest that you need to care about low-income designers. All I'm saying is that prices may go up...because WE game designers care about low-income designers! That's not to say that we don't care about low-income gamers or gamers of any type for that matter. We simply need to put food on the table and this obviously requires money.

Exactly, David. Gamers have been noticed and wondered about price increases, and they'll be seeing more of them. I know the knee-jerk reaction to price increases is "Those guys are screwing me!" (Hey, that's what *I* feel whenever my bills increase.) So a lot of us publishers don't mind coming out and talking about what we're doing and why, and putting it into some kind of perspective.

One of the neat things about the game industry is that there really is a lot of close contact between the producers and the consumers. It's only human nature that we, on one side, feel empathy and want to help out the fans who can't afford full price stuff. (Hence the various ways we help make items available for less --- I love the warm feeling of selling an underfunded college kid a slightly-damaged copy of a book for a fraction of retail. We've both won.) Conversely, most people do care about the conditions and well-being of people who create and supply them with goods, games or otherwise. In the example of garment makers overseas, I honestly think the fact that they are "out of sight, out of mind" is the biggest issue. There are exceptions -- the kind of customers who are persistently rude and overbearing to everyone they come in contact with in a commercial transaction (and who never tip, in countries where it isn't automatically included in the bill) -- but I think that kind of behavior is, well, indicative of a dysfunctional personality. People like getting deals, but they also IMHO have a natural desire to have "win-win" economic relationships for the long run.

If we follow King_Stannis' reasoning to its logical conclusion, for example, then no one would ever tip. Sure, there are cheapskates who never do (insert dialogue from Reservoir Dogs), but I think such jerks are the emotionally crippled exception, not the norm. (Apologies to any chronic non-tippers that I may have offended.)

 

[King_Stannis]

....If we follow King_Stannis' reasoning to its logical conclusion, for example, then no one would ever tip. Sure, there are cheapskates who never do (insert dialogue from Reservoir Dogs), but I think such jerks are the emotionally crippled exception, not the norm. (Apologies to any chronic non-tippers that I may have offended.)

ahhh, a subject actually near and dear to my heart. back when i was in college, i waited tables at pizza hut for 3 years. i can't stand cheap tippers!......but, getting to your point, i think it's a little different. i, along with many people, feel that the tip really is part of the cost of the meal - even if it is "unwritten". i start at 15% and work my way up or down, depending on the level of service. why? because the waiter/watress is performing a service you can see and immediately respond to. how does this compare to the editor of a rpg product you wish to buy - as you said earlier in your post, "out of sight out of mind". (a very honest response, by the way). the editor can't be seen and is not as appreciated. it's a little different when a waitress busts her butt for you and you leave her nothing, and then have to look her in the eye before you leave the restaurant.

by the way, you sell damaged stuff? is this on your website?

 

[Voadam]

(Oh, we also donate games to charity -- usually the "Santa Anonymous" kind of programs around Christmas.)

Fact is, I'm fairly surprised at how little we sell through the cheap avenues. For instance, I'm amazed that we don't get more Fire Sale orders than we do. Why is that?

I'm very glad you have that Salta special, I have gotten a ton of fun Ars Magica stuff I otherwise would not have, (Faeries, Rome, Iberia, and others.) RPGs are my biggest economic vice but I still budget and am probably more swayed by discounts than I should be. (I can remember recently thinking "oooh, its 50% off and less than $10. No, no, damnit, it's not relevant enough to my interests.")

 

[Florin]

Re: Re: You people slay me

The unusual gamer may be very interested in that $100 cool-enough-to-die-for product, which no one has ever offered her because they were too busy trying to kiss up to the vast pool of average gamers who simply will never want their offerings at any price.

Heh, call it a Pavlovian response, but just the thought of how cool a $100 item could be makes me literally drool! I would love to see an item that would be worth $100. I guess that makes me unsual. There's something new!!

I bought as many of the limited edition hardcovers as I could when White Wolf put them out during its revision period. They were worth every penny to me.