Game Pricing

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

what could be worth $100 to me...

A full length campaign, starting from 1st level, ending at say, 20th, enough for 1 year of weekly play.

It would have a detailed home base for the players, suggested backgrounds for players, and a sound, sensible system of selling, making magic items, and a sliding scale economy.

Every major NPC would have a portrait (preferably on its own page/handout) so I can just show it to the players instead of describing him/her. (For a campaign this size, I'd expect no less than 100 NPCs, allies and enemies included) If the price point is high enough, perhaps a "voice sample" CD or downloadable .wav file could be provided too, especially for those long expositions where the DM's voice might crack.

Each location will have a full-size tactical map, one that you can just lay down on the gaming table and play on top of, as opposed to having to draw it out on a battle map. Even better, the maps would be in sections, so I can lay it down on the table as the PCs approach each section. I won't have to resort to masking out sections that they don't know about. If there are secret doors, for instance, I'd have a special secret door section I can drop down.

Counters or minis will be provided, of course. With some sort of clicking system so I won't have to track hit points behind my screen.

Artwork will be plentiful, pre-arranged in an order that I can show my players, and in its own booklet so I don't have to give up my module when showing something to my players. Again, each illustration should be on its own sheet, and preforated so I can tear out just that sheet and pass it around.

Pre-made props will be in the box, high quality parchment for actual parchment, reasonable simulcra of tactile objects---the orb of golden death, for instance, wouldn't be made out of real gold.

Every "chapter" of the campaign will be chock full of options. At least the following options will be available at any given point:
1. A role playing option, for groups that are heavy on that
2. A combat heavy option, for those nights when you just need to kill thing
3. A cerebral, problem solving approach for the puzzle-heavies.

A DM's map of expected challenges, levels, and fully adjusted setup for different #s of players would be necessary.

This will all be backed by an unparalleled on-line support system, including bulletin boards, regular updates (a newsletter on-line or paper that promises to go on for at least 2 years after the first release of the product), and additional goodies. Everything within reason (NPC stats, for example, but not location descriptions) would be downloadable in electronic format so you can modify and hack it.

Do all this, and you might very well get me to part with my $100. It would truly be a pre-made campaign, one that I wouldn't have to do a lot of work for, and man, it would make the players oooh and ahhh when they see the props, etc.

 

[kenjib]

In my opinion, the sad truth just might be that an entertainment book publishing industry in which 10,000 units sold is a great success simply might not have a large enough customer base to thrive at the level that it's authors would like. Honestly I would love for game designers to make more money and would like to see a more workable model emerge - those salary figures are really very insufficient, but I don't think that the comparison to textbooks is very fair. It's a very different dynamic. I personally would probably still buy books after a 20% across the board (although perhaps fewer of them so it might just cancel out the benefit) but will that really double all of the writers' salaries? I think not because the distributor and retailer will still take their cut of that increase, right?

How about thinking of ways to increase the customer base instead of trying to raise the prices, which would shrink the customer base (even if only a tiny bit)? I think it's quite obvious that this would have a positive impact on the industry although I'm not sure how well it can be done. I think more product tie ins to other industries would help - Everquest d20 is one example. Top selling Computer Console Games consistently bring in sales figures that are in a different league than most rpg products (probably with the exception of only the three core D&D books). The diablo game was another example of such an attempt. Why stick to just fantasy though? Bringing in players through the current fantasy movie craze would also make a notable impact in my opinion.

Start with the younger generation. I have a nephew who plays computer games and it's all he can think about. When he's not playing computer games he's pretending that he is. If you think about it, pretending to play a computer game is pretty much a tabletop RPG. Get these young kids - there are tons of them. A friend's daughter only played our playstation one night and she still keeps talking about it and pretending that she is one of the computer game characters when doing other things. Young kids around age 6 or so really want to play RPGs, but there is not enough marketting toward them. They have significant buying power - look at pokemon. In addition by catching people at a young age you keep the industry alive in the long run by bringing more and more new generations into the game, who might continue playing for the rest of their lives via other product lines aimed at the more mature players.

The marketing needs to be in full swing as well. The Diablo tabletop game should be sold right next to the computer game aisle at places like Toys R Us, Walmart, and Comp USA. The Harry Potter rpg (why the heck doesn't a harry potter rpg exist guys? come on now!) should be for sale at Barnes and Nobles, at toy stores next to the Harry Potter action figure series, and at Blockbuster video even. The Marvel Comics RPG should be sold at the comic book store. You can't just plop this stuff down at the game store in the middle of all of the hardcore game stuff - your target market doesn't shop there.

Finally, the rules need to be simplified so that 6 year old kids can play these games without adult supervision. The product lines need to scale across different complexities for different target audiences. The intro D&D game that came out was a start but it was still far too complicated. Think somewhere in between that and Candyland. Blur the lines between mainstream consumer games and RPGs. This could help to reduce the stigma on RPGs that keeps many potential players away. Why are many people fine with playing "host a murder mystery" but rpgs are suddenly kids stuff? What's the difference? If you blur the lines enough there is no difference.

Get this stuff out there and diversify the market. Kids really want this stuff but it's not there in a form they can use. The hardcore gamers don't need to worry about quality being diluted through the mass market approach because this mass market approach could provide a sound economic basis for more risky niche-oriented and hardcore game materials to be produced at great quality and less profit.

I might be totally wrong but those are my thoughts on the matter. What are some other untapped markets?

 

[El Ravager]

Okay, I haven't finished reading the entire thread, but I need to leave right now and wanted to make this point before I go.

The arguement has been raised: why do people care about the low income game designer and not the low income gamer. The reason I care, quite simply, is that the designer makes something for me that I want - the gamer does not. It may be harsh, but that is the bottom line.

In my personal experience, low income is not an exclusionary factor in playing the game. In buying, yes, but not playing. Many players in our group do not own a single book. Not even a PHB. Some do not even own their own set of dice. They are still great players and add a lot to the game but their investment is a grand total of $0.

I may not like paying lots of money, but I recognize that I would because I like what the designers publish and I want them to be able to afford to continue making material that I enjoy.

=====
El Rav

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

all writer salaries?

It's a very different dynamic. I personally would probably still buy books after a 20% across the board (although perhaps fewer of them so it might just cancel out the benefit) but will that really double all of the writers' salaries?

I don't care about all of the writers' salaries! Those who don't write successful products shouldn't get much money, if any. But the ones that are successful should be really successful! I don't mean rock-star successful --- the market just won't support that, but maybe successful enough to compete with say, a software engineer's salary. Not many will reach that level, but it would be enough of an incentive to make better product.

 

[Ashtal]

Just a note to say I deleted a duplicate post (Thorin's - posted twice).

 

[drnuncheon]

man, this is the exact point i was making to john nephew on the original incarnation of this thread. does anyone really care about the people who make product x or y when they buy it? of course not, so why should rpg's be any different.

Actually, I do care about who made a product - when such a thing is important.

Let me ask you this, King Stannis...wouldn't you buy the next George R.R. Martin book, even if you found out it was going to cost $5 more than the last one? I would.

J

 

[King_Stannis]

Actually, I do care about who made a product - when such a thing is important.

Let me ask you this, King Stannis...wouldn't you buy the next George R.R. Martin book, even if you found out it was going to cost $5 more than the last one? I would.

J

i probably would, but only under consideration of the cost vs the value. mr martin's personal well being would most likely not enter into my decision making. when i come to my decision to buy his product and plunk down my money, me and him are even and owe each other nothing. george could choose not to write any more books for a host of reasons that i have no control over (i.e. burnout). would he then owe ME something, because i've bought all of his prior books and am a big fan? of course not. as i said, once the transaction is completed, we are flush.

i probably would pay $5 more, but $15 more and i would probably borrow the book, get it out from the library, or wait until it comes in paperback form. mr martin's well being be damned.

 

[Hard8Staff]

Kenjib,

The only company capable of marketing outside the industry as of now is WOTC. They're also the only company that can make a game that blurs the lines.

But making games that blur the lines alone doesn't help. People need to play them. Not only that, marketing outside the industry may be a poor investment right now as well (last time I checked WOTC must not have been doing so hot either since they laid off a chunk of folks).

The simplest and BEST way to capture that cousin of yours? YOU should teach him how to play RPGs and play with him and his friends. Next thing you know *poof* 3-6 new gamers. If everyone on the boards did this we'd see an influx unlike any since 1981.

Just my thoughts on it.

Dave

 

[kenjib]

I forgot that the d20 license has restrictions like that. That's a good point. However, if WotC were to bring in fresh blood like that it would benefit everyone in the long run, even though it could take many years for it to kick in.

I'm working on my cousin. The problem is that he lives in California and I moved up to Seattle so I'm not there to play with him. I got him the D&D adventure game for Christmas and he really loved playing it. The problem is that it is far too difficult for him to play alone with his friends and his parents are not gamers. So there's not much I can do now. I'm sad too because it would be really fun to play with him. There's no entry point for kids at this age without requiring an adult to play with the kids. I think that's a problem. To capture that age most effectively he needs to be able to take it to his friends and play without me being there. But trust me, my two boys will learn to play for sure (although they're only 1 year old now ), and I'll see how my friend feels about her daughter playing as well. She's already 7 and would like it. She really liked Shrek.

It's a shame that someone else can't do it with the D&D logo, but imagine a board game with plastic figures simplified to the point where you only have armor class, magic resistance (i.e. saving throws), and hit points. That's it. Weapons and spells do fixed damage (ala dagger does 1 points, longsword does 2 points, greatsword does 3 points) and characters have a pool of chits to track their hit points. Simplify the movement rules even further. Each turn you can either move 5 squares, attack, or cast a spell - that's it.

There are maybe 6 simple characters, all clerics, wizards, and fighters. Wizards and clerics have a predetermined list of very simple spells and no spell-per-day limit. Nobody advances levels. This is all to make things as simple as possible.

Now there is no math involved beyond counting chits and knowing that 18 is higher than 12 - not even any addition/subtraction - in the game and it becomes simple. Roll d20 and if you beat the armor class with your longsword you remove 2 chits from the monster's chit pool. When someone's chit pool is empty they are dead. Something this simple is required for my cousin to play without adult intervention.

Sure it sounds kind of boring to us but I don't think it would be boring to young kids.

Avoiding the d20 license altogether (since you could easily do it without), wouldn't a Harry Potter game kind of like this be of significant benefit to the future of the industry? To capture the Harry Potter demographic, I think you need something very simple with no math involved. Things with tie-ins like Shrek or Starcraft could work at this level as well. Then if WotC had a similar game but with the official D&D stamp it could serve as a bridge from these to more RPG-ish territory. I dunno, maybe not. It's just an idea that crossed my mind. There really doesn't seem to be much out there to capture the emerging demographic before they get into late elementary/junior high and encounter peer pressure that might make them less receptive, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jaults]

Cool ideas, Thorin Stoutfoot!

    Just wanted to chime in that I think any (all is rather unlikely for $100) of the ideas in the post by Thorin Stoutfoot sound really cool... At that price point, it is certainly something I'd have to see a good review (or 5) on before I bought it, but I would assume that it would get good reviews if someone put that much money into it...

Thanks,
    Jason