Game Pricing

[JohnNephew]

Re: $100 items

John Nephew, if all of the ars magica stuff was available as ESDs that would interest me. A CD set with the complete books including out of print ones and previous editions (such as the demons supplement) would be great. The option to pick up individual titles cheaply as electronic files would also interest me.

I've been looking into the ESD issue, and am considering trying it out with some out-of-print Ars Magica titles. The problem with some titles (e.g., the Maleficium, which you mention) is that they were done by previous owners of the game, and we do not have computer files. (Heck, in some cases we may not even have a copy of the book.) This makes the creation of a PDF of any quality problematic. Still, if I found that ESD sales were reasonable strong, I might go so far as to move some slower-moving in-print titles into the program -- and then send all the remaining copies of the actual books to the recycling center. (Warehouse too full! Need more room!!)

While I'm writing, it's now official -- starting today, Atlas Games mail order is being fulfilled by Steve Jackson's Warehouse 23. As we speak, the web pages are being updated to open W23 shopping carts when you push the "buy me" button on our website. For the moment, we'll still be doing fire sale stuff from Minnesota, but this should make it easier for people to order online, with W23's shopping cart and secure server and all. (Note that W23 does not discount, so it's really a place to get stuff you have trouble finding at your FLGS, not a place to get things for cheap.)

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Re: you paid $60 for the core rules?

I paid $42. ($14 each at Amazon.com)

But if you've spent $100 on non-core stuff over the last year, and a product came out that was more desirable and useful than what that $100 bought you, wouldn't you save up for it, rather than buying say, useless splatbooks and slayer's guides, and quintessential xyzs?

I know what my answer would be.

I don't buy useless Splatbooks. Here is what I've bought for D&D 3e.

WOTC Books:
PHB -$19.99
DMG -$19.99
MM - $19.99
MOTP - $29.95
Living Greyhawk Gazetter - $26.95

3rd Party Material:
Legions of Hell - $12.95
Armies of the Abyss - $14.95

Adventures:
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - $29.99
Demons & Devils - $12.99

Total: 190.00 so so.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Storminator writes:

I'm seriously wondering about these $100+ items discussed here. It seems to me like people are willing to pay 3 times as much money, but only so long as they get 10 times as much product. What game companies really need to find is how to get 10 times as much money for three times as much product.

Well, think about it. For $10 you get a 32 page module. For $20, you get a 96 page splat book. For $40, you get a 320 page campaign setting in hardcover. So for 4 times more money, you get 10 times more product. That's about right.

So, for $100 product, you should get a 1000 page product, or a 600 page pre-made campaign (not campaign setting, you couldn't get me to buy one for $40, and I think the ones out there are already fine as it is), with lots of goodies. I think it'd have to be a boxed set, in order for there to be really cool props, multiple booklets/books, a CD or three, etc.

See the progression there? A $100 product HAS to offer a lot of value, and it potentially could. I think those who think that there can't be a $100 product that would get them to open up their wallet are suffering from a lack of imagination as to what could be possible (this is common with product innovations --- consumers didn't clamor for portable radios, but when Sony came out with one, they bought in droves). But when shown an actual $100 product that was TRULY cool and had the appropriate production values, I bet they'd still buy. If you're on this message board, you're probably already an enthusiast, and probably have spent more on this hobby than I have.

I've bought (so far): 3 core books ($45), Return to Temple of elemental evil ($16 on ebay), Death in Freeport ($8), 2 other modules ($20),DM Screen ($10), Manual of the planes ($20 on Amazon.com), Forgotten Realms CS ($16 on eBay), Greyhawk Gazetter ($20 on Amazon.com), Cardboard Heroes ($15 from Talon), Counter Collection I,II ($20). CoC d20 ($28) Dungeon Magazine subscription ($20)

$238. Ok, Flexor the Mighty has spent less.

 

[Voadam]

Re: Re: $100 items

I've been looking into the ESD issue, and am considering trying it out with some out-of-print Ars Magica titles. The problem with some titles (e.g., the Maleficium, which you mention) is that they were done by previous owners of the game, and we do not have computer files. (Heck, in some cases we may not even have a copy of the book.) This makes the creation of a PDF of any quality problematic. Still, if I found that ESD sales were reasonable strong, I might go so far as to move some slower-moving in-print titles into the program -- and then send all the remaining copies of the actual books to the recycling center. (Warehouse too full! Need more room!!)

While I'm writing, it's now official -- starting today, Atlas Games mail order is being fulfilled by Steve Jackson's Warehouse 23. As we speak, the web pages are being updated to open W23 shopping carts when you push the "buy me" button on our website. For the moment, we'll still be doing fire sale stuff from Minnesota, but this should make it easier for people to order online, with W23's shopping cart and secure server and all. (Note that W23 does not discount, so it's really a place to get stuff you have trouble finding at your FLGS, not a place to get things for cheap.)

Great! I was hoping you were heading in this direction on ESDs. I didn't know if you even had the rights for reprinting old stuff from previous companies or just to sell off the old inventory.

I understand the concerns about the pdf quality. I was a little ticked when I opened my pdf of Unearthed Arcana and it had a rip across the middle of the Drow PC section.

 

[Storminator]

Storminator writes:

Well, think about it. For $10 you get a 32 page module. For $20, you get a 96 page splat book. For $40, you get a 320 page campaign setting in hardcover. So for 4 times more money, you get 10 times more product. That's about right.

<SNIP>

See the progression there? A $100 product HAS to offer a lot of value, and it potentially could. <SNIP>

WARNING! Possibly incoherent ramblings ahead!

Oh I see the progression, and I see that your $100 product follows it, but I question the whole premise. To get profits up, you need to add price faster than you add cost, especially since a product an order of magnitude more expensive will have fewer customers. So you have to add amazing-cool-factor without adding a bunch of production costs.

A 1000 page tome with a dozen adventures and a sound effect CD and minis and maps and art and and and is really bitchin, but if you make no more profit per sale than you do on a $25 product, why bother? Why not make 4 $25 products? So where will that amazing-cool-factor (think I'll copyright that term) come from?

I think we're looking at something you make 500 of, tops. Something that most people will never own, because most people will never spend $100 on something. It needs to add value just sitting on the shelf. I need to feel good about this thing while I'm not playing. I have a map of Napa valley that mounted and framed cost nearly $200, but it makes my living room look great. Where's the gaming equivalent?

Where's the expandable, compartmented, zipper carrying case I put mini cases, rulebooks, my map case and 500 dice in? That unfolds into a card table with a built in pop DM screen(with cup holders!)?!?! Set me back $150 and let me take this awesome kit to Cons, so when I show up and slap this thing down and start unfolding it and setting it up, everyone wants to come see what the hell it is. That sort of thing.

I'm starting to convince myself that if there was a really cool accessory, not game product, but accessory, I would get it.

I spent $400 last month, so I think I'm more the customer for these things.

(see, told you I rambled!)

PS

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Storminator writes:


$238. Ok, Flexor the Mighty has spent less.

Well once you add in my miniature costs...

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

accessories

I'm starting to convince myself that if there was a really cool accessory, not game product, but accessory, I would get it.

Game accessories are already expensive. Battlemaps and miniatures don't come cheap. But to me, they're not essential to the RPG experience.

 

[Sigmund]

Re: what would i pay $100 for?

what would i pay $100+ for. here it is, my $100 answer. i've been working on a campaign setting the past few weeks and the more i get into it the more i realize i have to add. and it's only the size of australia...not the whole eurasian continent.

every time i work on some part i go through this, i wish i were a cartographer, i wish i were an artist; i wish i knew a dozen languages, could write like herodatus, and imagine like tolkein.

here's what i would pay big bucks for: do it for me. i mean an extensive and thorough
extensive treatment of a highly original campaign setting. not something that is introducing rules for this and prestige classes for that and eighty seven new spells and thirty three new feats.

i mean a set of several matching hardback and softcover volumes of everything about the setting: geography, climate, politics, history, religion, culture. with plenty informational flavor text--it must be well written. don't just show me a timeline. give me exerpts from histories, legends, and mythologies. don't just give facts, give npcs (living and dead) versions and opionions. don't just create a world canon; give me world apocrypha--the more the better. give me the prophecies of zantar the one-eyed madman who lit his hair on fire and uttered grim foretellings. give me the unutturable ravings of Stephihah the whore-prophetess.

it should include cities of various sizes. when you're selling a city supplement, it has to be a big city for people to buy it. not so with the uber-product. but why not include the village of thorax, so named because it was build in the overturned shell of a gargantuan beetle.

not only that, but there must be variety, but on a manageable scale. FR tries to be everything to everyone. this should be organic and interesting.

it cannot just be about the biggest and best or most representative. there must be npcs of all levels and types with personality. include minor flavor details like how the crippled beggar lost his legs in the service of a dark god who then abandoned him despite the dark oaths that were made, and how all of the local churches shun him and will not help him because of that.

have a creative theology. i know the history of humankind has not been so creative in its actual worship, but not all religions have to make sense, have game-real gods, or be a rehash of some known pantheon. work with morality, what makes evil evil? why is good usually not as good as it portends to be? now make that part of the theology.

never include the text: "adventure hook." if you create a thorogh setting, the hooks will come. but it should include a few adventures the dm can make use of. not a mega-adventure, it's more the side-quests and mini adventures that break up an otherwise fluid campaign. but make sure they are not level-dependent--it's easy enough to present multiple scalings of the combat opponents so the adventure can be dropped in at any level.

all maps should be in duplicate, one marked version for the dm, and an unmarked version for players. all in loose-leaf form for easy perusal. i have so many maps that i would use if only i could remember to get them laminated because they're so damned big and i don't want them to break at the folds.

also, it should have lots of loose-leaf art, both full-color and b&w for showing players. loose leaf so i don't have to crack the binding of the book to show it to the players.

all player information should be in its own volume, available separately so the players don't get the eighteen volumes of crunchy bits meant for dms only.

and most of all, it cannot be forgotten realms revisited. (not to bash fr--i'm a fan.)
there are some creative settings coming out, but they suffer from too many new prcs and feats that they don't come together as a setting. this must take setting creation to a whole new level.

so what's the difference between doing this all together instead of a series of books? individual books must have a solid focus; there's no room to include the comprehensiveness as well as flavor and details that make a campaign setting really work.

also, this stuff should be a good read. i like FRCS, but it's not a good read. it suffers from trying to cram too much information into a limited space and you can tell it got cut, abridged, and edited to death. otoh when i bought my first shadowrun rulebook, i read the first 20 pages over and over; that was short, but it created such a great feel for the setting.

granted a campaign setting is not a novel. but it should contain many of the same elements that we love about fantasy. reading it should evoke the same wonder that reading a good fantasy novel does. it should inspire that novel in our minds so we can recreate that sense for our players as they become acquainted with the world through the game.

anyway, i'd pay big bucks for that. hell, if i had the time i'd create that myself. once again, i applaud you guys who are doing this.

This describes Harn pretty well, although it would actually cost a couple hundred dollars to get all the books for that setting. Well worth it IMO.

 

[Storminator]

Re: accessories

Game accessories are already expensive. Battlemaps and miniatures don't come cheap. But to me, they're not essential to the RPG experience.

Ummm. Depends on what you mean by expensive. I'm hard pressed to find a $50 mini. And battle mats are around $50 for the biggest one from Chessex. So we aren't close to $100 here. I can get a set of Dwarven Forge for less than 100 bucks, so that's not it either.

I think the key to a $100+ item is that it's NOT essential to the RPG experience. It's an over the top extra that most won't get. I can spend $700 dollars on a pool cue. Where's the RPG equivalent?

PS

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: I'm disappointed

maybe a mega adventure with a soundtrack and miniatures of every beast encountered in the scenario? even then i'd balk at the price, most likely. triple digits would cause sticker shock to me.

What triple digits??? You know as well as I do that it'll cost $99.99.

For me, a $100.00 gaming product would include a buttload of mini's, some cardboard or styrofoam mock-up (fully painted and textured) for the encounter areas, full listing of NPC's and simple descriptions of their characteristics and goals, and house rules to make the world completely unique.

P.S. Reading John Nephew's account of his "bargain bin" experiences, I feel forced to share my boss's philosophy called "good and cheap." (He may not be the originator, but I heard it from him first.) "good and cheap" states that in order for a product to catch on popularly, it must be both. It can be good, and the price justified, and it can still succeed - but it cannot be merely cheap. Most people place emphasis on items in that order.
Very rare is the cheapskate who dries his Bounty Paper towels in the sun to re-use them.

Ryan Dancey quoted direct fact on the FRCS - it sold through regardless of price. It was a good product, and its cost was justified. Had it been priced cheaper, it might have sold even better, but more likely it wouldn't have made but a 5% or 10% sales increase.

Had the FRCS been cheap, but poor quality, it probably wouldn't have sold enough to make printing cost.