Gamers and Thieves

jester47 said:
Do you find a similar trend in your experiences?

I think it became worse with the advent of trading card games. Don't want to bash those, it's really not their fault. Mostly kids and juves are the ones who steal. Really sad.

But that's what you get for advertising games to kids, who cannot afford them...

Bye
Thanee
 

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philreed said:
This hurts me personally. And many, many others. Let's remember that the people you're hurting are not making a lot of money and your actions can put a serious impact on their lives.

I think this is a matter of mautruity and respect. Many years back I had a similar attitude as ender_wiggin, but as I got older (and admittedly a little more financially secure) and went to work everyday, I developed much more respect for the hard work of others. Unfortunately many people do not have that respect when it comes to digital creative works (MP3s, PDFs, software etc.) because they feel that they have not taken anything physical, therefore it does not "cost" anything to the creators. Now if I like something enough to have a copy of my own, I will pay for it. If I feel it is not worth the money, I just will not get it.
 

ender_wiggin said:
I've never actually taken anything out of a store (being raised with decent morals),

OK...

ender_wiggin said:
Does anyone know the manufacture price on these $50 books?

I can't give you exact numbers, but seeing as I worked for a major publisher (after I worked in the bookstores), I'd guess that the cost to manufacture a $50 book is probably somewhere in the $15-18 range. But you have to look at the entire system, not just the manufacturing cost. It breaks down something like this:

$50 book (retail price)
Bookstore buys book at 42% discount off cover price from distributor = $29
Distributor buys book from publisher at variable discount = +/- $20
Publisher production costs = =/- $18
Publisher pays writer, editor, artist, layout, publicity, marketing, copyediting, etc.
Publisher profit per book = +/- $2

So the publisher is making around $2 per book (probably less), assuming that they don't have a poor selling title. I don't think it's the publisher who is making the most money. In most cases, it's the distibutor. The bookstore looks like it has the biggest discount, but in reality, it has more out of pocket costs to deal with.

ender_wiggin said:
It's all about the price vs value. Have I ever bought a legal copy of Windows XP Professional? That costs $280.

Yes

ender_wiggin said:
Have I every bought a pdf?

Yes, many

ender_wiggin said:
You get a copy from your friend. It's that simple.

No it's not. It has to do with those "decent morals" you mentioned way back at the beginning of your post. Just because you can't see the person you are hurting doesn't mean that you aren't hurting anyone. And alot of those people you are hurting are probably reading your posts, since many of them post here on a regular basis.

ender_wiggin said:
If I had the people resources that some of you guys had, I would definately be ripping pdf versions of books off. I'll be honest - if I had enough money to buy a decent scanner I would do it myself.

Let me guess, your pretty young, right?

It's not about people resources, it's about morals and honesty. Sure, I've got a few burned music files (but not many), but 99% of them are bands that I wanted to listen to before I bought the album, then went out and bought the real CD. The others I didn't like well enough to buy the real thing, and don't listen to the burned copies at all.

I have exactly 2 copied PDFs that I didn't buy or were not given to me by the publisher. Both of them were purchased by someone in my gaming group, and we are using them in the game I am currently running. The reason for copying them and not buying my own copy? Because the publisher, on their website, explicity gives permission to share the files with up to 8 people in your current gaming group.
 


Its a mix of demographics, price, gotta get em all, and the fact that 90% of people steal, and choose to rationalize their stealing while they have problems with others.

As pointed out, most gamers are younger guys. In general, younger guys are more likely to risk pretty theft. RPG Books are also pretty expensive, and when trying to buy a lot of them, money becomes an issue, especially for those on an allowance or minimum wage.

In the late 80s, my DM used to switch price tags on his RPG Books, he would peel off $10 stickers and put them on $20 books. He figured that if he was caught, they wouldn't be able to prove he swithed the stickers. He also wouldn't go more than half off, figuring that he still wanted the price tag to be somewhat believable, and not actually cause the store to lose money, just not make a profit.

From 97-02 I worked in a photgraphy store located near the School of Visual Arts in NYC. Like most stores, there were occasional attempts at theft, but most of the SVA students who really wanted to steal? Applied for a job. There was definitely more theft from employees than from customers.

And just to illustrate my final point, the owner of that store would often complain about shoplifters or crooked employees, but yet stole cable, and lived in a rent-controlled apartment. Because I'm like this, I actually ASKED him how he could possilbly complain about theft when he does it too. His response "Stealing cable isn't stealing...the cable company is big and rips me off." When I responded again that he is obvioulsy more well off than the students, and that marking certain items up 75% or selling gray-market film was ripping them off, he just muttered under his breath and walked away.

I've seen people say it's ok to download music but not PDFs, people who say it's ok to steal cable but not inventory, and people who will cheat on their taxes because everyone does it.
People just want to believe that they're better than the other thieves.

You show me someone who says they've NEVER stolen anything, and I'll show you a liar. 99.5% of the time.
 

Well, to say I've never stolen anything would be an outright lie, so I'm not going to point fingers. In my misspent youth I added a lot to my paperback sci-fi collection through unauthorized acquisition.

But I do agree that gaming books and supplies are shoplifted at a very high rate. I have known lots of people who got their stuff through less than legal channels. I also have a couple of 1e books that were left at my place after a game and no one ever came to collect them.

The last attempt at an FLGS in my town before the current one was about 5 years ago, when this guy hired someone to be his manager. He came in the next day, and the entire store had been emptied and the door left swinging open. It was later found out the "manager" had rented a Uhaul and robbed the place of everything over night.

As far as CCG's go, none of the schools in my region allow them on campus. From kindergarten on up, the rate of thefts and out right muggings by little kids to take cards from others got really out of hand. It was insane.
 


ender_wiggin said:
I've never actually taken anything out of a store (being raised with decent morals), but I must admit, the temptation is there, the motive is there, and the means is there. Does anyone know the manufacture price on these $50 books? All the gaming friends I knew face to face are either in college now or are doing drugs, so I don't know about their thievery individually, but I know its there, inexplicably.

It's all about the price vs value. Have I ever bought a legal copy of Windows XP Professional? That costs $280. Hell no, you burn a copy from your friend. Have I every bought a pdf? Hell no. You get a copy from your friend. It's that simple. If I had the people resources that some of you guys had, I would definately be ripping pdf versions of books off. I'll be honest - if I had enough money to buy a decent scanner I would do it myself.

Here is why what you are doing is stealing:

True when you copy a PDF, or MP3, or WindowsXP you are not really stealing anything physical. You are using means that are available to you to make a copy.

The law you are violating is called copyright law.

Lets talk about a copyright. A copyright is just that, it is a "right" given to someone to make a copy of somthing. Somtimes people have this right because they made the software, the song, or wrote the book. Other times, people pay to have the right to make copies. This is what happens in most of the publishing and the music industry(the RPG industry is turning out to be more like software industry). They pay the writer or artist for the exclusive rights to make and sell copies.

When you make a copy and you do not have the right to do so, you are violating the rights of those people. Just like the US government jailing a US citizen for speaking against it is violating their right to free speach. Or being a vigilante that kills his victims violates a criminals rights to due process.

You are saying when you make a copy that your happiness is more important than that of the game designer, the musician, or the software engineer that wrote the thing you are copying.

Here is why the rights work like they do:

Now, lets say Ford has just released the Model T. These cars are starting to be everywhere. You get a hold of one, and take it apart, and build a factory to make it. But you give the cars away. They are the exact same car as Ford is selling.

There are two ways you can do this. You can pay Ford for the right to make the car he designed. Or you can just make the cars. Ford will probably not sell you the rights to make the car if you are going to undersell him because that would put him out of business. Now he might be willing to do a contract with you that states that you cant sell them for less than he sells them. But he will probably not let you give them away and put him out of business, no matter how philanthopic your intentions. The government would probably be against you also because you are depriving Ford and his workers of their lively hoods and this will hurt the economy.

You need to understand this. Your computer is not a toy. The software used to design the MX missile was less powerful than Microsoft Excel. Thats MS Excel as it ran on Windows 3.11. If you were smart enough, your computer could be used to topple governments and crash economies. And I do not mean by being a leet haxor and turning stuff off. Your computer is a data factory. Instead of making cars, it makes data files. When you copy a PDF, software, MP3 or other you disrupt the process by which people make thier livings and lead thier lives. If you had any sort of moral compass, you would learn this, like I did, and stop. Play by the rules.

About the rules:

Somtimes the rules don't work. We see this in the music industry. For 30 years the record companies have been using thier means of distribution to stick it to the artists and the people that listen to their music. If you don't agree with this, don't copy and distribute MP3s. Instead figure out a way to distribute music that cuts out these record companies and distributes the music in a better way. Change the rules. Don't hurt people. It costs money (about one million) to make a recording. Thats just the musicians and the mics and the studio. Until MP3s it cost a lot more to distribute. But CDs whlie costing a fraction of the cost of a record to make are sold at twice that ammount. But you still hurt a lot of people when you copy an MP3. Do you think the fat cat exec is going to for a minute allow you to hurt him? No, he will pass the cost on to his underlings and the musicians you so claim to love.

A quick bit back to the cost of Windows XP. That is not that price because greedy microsoft wants money. Its that price because microsoft knows how much people pirate thier software and they price accordingly to make a profit. Video games are even moreso. Think the prices are too high? Stop pirating. They will drop.

For gaming books this is not the case. But when you PDF a book and distribute it for free, you hurt the company that makes what you are giving away. You are saying that you and your friends are more important than the company. However, when the company goes away, and can't provide you and your friends entertaining gaming books anymore who have you really hurt? You have hurt your friends for a much longer time than you helped them out. You have hurt yourself. You have hurt all the people at the company that made the game. Would you do all this and still claim you are moral?

"Such a loss. People have no grasp of what they do."

Aaron.
 
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Yeah, in general, surely.

I'm just talking about RPG shops and especially trading cards/tabletops. That at least is my experience, or better the experience of some friends of mine who work in such a shop.

Bye
Thanee
 

philreed said:
This hurts me personally. And many, many others.
Only if someone who would otherwise have bought the pdf doesn't. If there was no chance of that, no one has actually been hurt.

I have never, nor will I ever, buy a pdf. I've never accepted an illegal copy, but if I was to do so, it wouldn't hurt anyone. It would still be stealing, mind you.
 

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