Gaming Fiction

[PaulKemp]

Paul, a couple additional notes, based on your replies.

That's the thing, though. It's something different for everybody. Some people read fantasy because they really like the setting, and for them, it's all about epic theme characters and archetypes moving through a beautiful, well-realized world.
What you said makes me more likely to read you, because it sounds like you treasure the kinds of things I treasure -- but it doesn't make someone who reads for setting/archetypal themes any less of a reader.

Agreed. I hope it did not seem as though I was suggesting that someone who treasures setting over characters, or vice versa, is any less a reader. I meant only to suggest that even in a world that is not a "wower," enthralling stories can be told.

That's a writer perspective, and as a writer, I agree with you completely. As a reader, I disagree somewhat, since I get annoyed with authors who retcon their universes to make room for more expansions or sequels. As a gamer, I disagree vehemently, because I paid good money for a campaign setting that should be everything I need to run my own game, and if someone comes along and violates it, that's a pain.

I don't think we disagree, even as gamers. I think we're talking about two different things. I think that a writer in a shared-game world has an obligation to make his writing consistent with the details of the setting. For my part, I work very hard to do that in FR and the little bits of realmslore that I insert into the narrative seem to please my readers (few though they may be ). What I meant to address was Hand of Evil's statement that any writing in a shared world by anyone other than its creator must needs be a poor translation/realization of that world. That latter point is the one that I didn't agree with.

Paul

 

[Hand of Evil]

Maybe flawed translation was the wrong phase.

 

[Umbran]

Mr. Kemp, a few thoughts for you...

You said, "This, I think, is just wrong. There is no objective, Platonic, *thing-in-itself* that is the Forgotten Realms (or any other world, for that matter)."

You are both correct and incorrect here, and perhaps missing (what I see) as Hand of Evil's point. There may not be a single, platonic *thing-in-itself* FR, but there is the single image of the world that the gamer/reader has inside his own head, formed as the person plays in the world and reads the fiction set in the world. That's the thing that the gaming author runs into trouble with.

You see a similar problem in television with the Star Trek franschise. Enterprise is constantly pounded by fans for "violating continuity". The viewers have had decades of shows depicting the universe in one manner, and when a new work violates that, it annoys the viewer.

You see it in other "shared world" books as well. While Niven's Man-Kzin Wars series has mantined high quality through nine books, the same cannot be said for Wild Cards or Thieves' World. When you have multiple authors working in the same world, they are bound to step on each others' toes, either in terms of style, factual content, or simple "one upsmanship". Simply put, it is the rare shared world that doesn't go downhill sooner or later.

On story and setting - The trouble I see here isn't one being more important than the other. The problem I see is that authors sometimes have problems writing in a world in which they don't have full creative control. They must shoehorn their own characters and ideas into a framework imposed from without. That restriction can't be easy to work with, and sometimes it shows.

 

[PaulKemp]

Mr. Kemp, a few thoughts for you...

You are both correct and incorrect here, and perhaps missing (what I see) as Hand of Evil's point. There may not be a single, platonic *thing-in-itself* FR, but there is the single image of the world that the gamer/reader has inside his own head, formed as the person plays in the world and reads the fiction set in the world. That's the thing that the gaming author runs into trouble with.

I agree with that(as I said above), but I think that simply goes to writing your work consistent with the "canon" material relevant to the world. A shared world author does have that responsibility and I take it seriously.

On story and setting - The trouble I see here isn't one being more important than the other. The problem I see is that authors sometimes have problems writing in a world in which they don't have full creative control. They must shoehorn their own characters and ideas into a framework imposed from without. That restriction can't be easy to work with, and sometimes it shows.

Agreed. I must acknowledge that those constraints are sometimes difficult to work with. All I'm trying to say is that notwithstanding that difficulty, good stories can still be told. So that difficulty alone should not be enough to dismiss gaming fiction as a genre. I think that makes sense.

I'd also note that even in a shared world, there is ample room for developing a setting. My first books were set in Sembia, which has seen little development in canon FR products. In that sense, I (and the rest of the Sembia authors) were able to play with setting in a way that might not always occur in a shared world setting. Even in short stories, I've been able to make little bits of Faerun my own, at least for a time, even while remaining true to both the letter and spirit of canon FR material.

There's good stuff out there -- even in gaming fiction -- if you're willing to look around a bit.

Paul

 

[takyris]

Hey Paul,

While we've got your ear, if you don't mind a slight hijack -- one thing that's often frustrated me about gaming fiction is that I'll see something done really well, someone playing with a new area, an unexplored religion, or something along those lines -- in a good fiction environment, but it doesn't get treated as canon by the game designers themselves, who might make a module that utterly violates what you did -- ignoring important events you established or altering characters, and so on.

Has this ever happened to you? How did you deal with it? Does this sort of concern cause you to stick to certain types of plots?

 

[CrusaderX]

Here's a thought and a question: can anyone name any great gaming fiction? Not just passable, but truly great?

Some consider Hickman & Weis, Salvatore, and Cunningham to be the "best" as far as gaming fiction goes. But most fans that I know seem to think that these names can't even begin to compare to the likes of a George RR Martin.

True, most fans that I know seem to think that most fiction writers can't compare to Martin. But when you're talking about non-gaming fiction vs. gaming fiction, at least the former has a Martin that we can hold up high as an example of greatness. The latter seems to have nobody even close in comparison.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Here's a thought and a question: can anyone name any great gaming fiction? Not just passable, but truly great?

Some consider Hickman & Weis, Salvatore, and Cunningham to be the "best" as far as gaming fiction goes. But most fans that I know seem to think that these names can't even begin to compare to the likes of a George RR Martin.

True, most fans that I know seem to think that most fiction writers can't compare to Martin. But when you're talking about non-gaming fiction vs. gaming fiction, at least the former has a Martin that we can hold up high as an example of greatness. The latter seems to have nobody even close in comparison.

I would say Raymond Fiest, his Kondor is also his gaming world and way back when he even had stuff published for it. The problem here is that he does not have too many other people adding their stories.

I like William King's Gotrek and Felix from the Warhammer setting.

Stackpole stuff.

 

[PaulKemp]

Here's a thought and a question: can anyone name any great gaming fiction? Not just passable, but truly great?

Some consider Hickman & Weis, Salvatore, and Cunningham to be the "best" as far as gaming fiction goes. But most fans that I know seem to think that these names can't even begin to compare to the likes of a George RR Martin.

Crusader, I'd be lying if I told you I hadn't considered that question myself, many times. I think a great part of it is attributable to the fact that a world designed first for gaming, and second for fiction, cannot capture the same epic feel as a world designed solely for fiction. In other words, what Martin and Jordan and Tolkien did with their respective worlds, simply will not work well for a game world. Lasting, commerical game worlds rarely have an ubervillain, whose defeat brings on a golden age of peace. The commerical gameworld has many sub-ubervillians, allowing many smaller tales to be told (in the form of campaigns set therein). Dragonlance broke this mold, which may explain why it failed as a game world, but succeeded as a world of fiction. IMO, the Dragonlance novels had the potential to be great, but the execution was flawed, in that inexperienced writers wrote the trilogy. Their strength was characterization, which was excellent in those books, but their technical writing proficiency -- everything from mastert of point of view, to plotting, to sentence structure -- was less than ideal. Otherwise, you might have seen something fairly characterized as "great" in gaming fiction (and many think the trilogy great anyway).

That general lack of "epicness," for lack of a better word, that is characteristic of game world fiction, may be what keeps the works from achieving greatness, at least in the eyes of many.

Now, even with all of that said, I've read gaming fiction that I thought was great -- some of Cunningham's work; some of J.Robert King's short stories, etc. Of course, my definition of great writing does not include a requirement that the story be epic, only that it be engrossing and well told.

What say ye?

Paul

 

[PaulKemp]

Hey Paul,

While we've got your ear, if you don't mind a slight hijack -- one thing that's often frustrated me about gaming fiction is that I'll see something done really well, someone playing with a new area, an unexplored religion, or something along those lines -- in a good fiction environment, but it doesn't get treated as canon by the game designers themselves, who might make a module that utterly violates what you did -- ignoring important events you established or altering characters, and so on.

Has this ever happened to you? How did you deal with it? Does this sort of concern cause you to stick to certain types of plots?

Takyris,

I haven't yet experienced this firsthand, probably due largely to the fact that my novels have occurred in Sembia, and there are few if any game supplements that deal with that realm.

The issue is present in game fiction, though. I've heard other authors discuss it. Note that the issue cuts both ways, obviously -- sometimes the designers do not honor what an author has done, and just as often, an author does not stay true to what the designers have created. It's an issue that I think is easily solved by each participant regarding the other's work with respect (something I always try to do).

Paul

 

[Hand of Evil]

Now, even with all of that said, I've read gaming fiction that I thought was great -- some of Cunningham's work; some of J.Robert King's short stories, etc. Of course, my definition of great writing does include a requirement that the story be epic, only that it be engrossing and well told.

What say ye?

Paul

For me it is good characters, character interaction, and dialog, which together creates the atmosphere for the setting.