Gaming Pornography: Will 4th Edition lead to a more Realistic and Useful Game?

[ColonelHardisson]

D&D was never realistic, I love 1e but goddern it realistic it aint!

I dunno. Back when I first started playing D&D in the late 70s, I was struck by its realism in modeling my life. Kinda turned me off of it for a short time. I mean, in my daily life I have to fight trolls on my way to the outhouse the elves built; why would I wanna do it in a game?

 

[Jack7]

Good Lord, I hardly expected this many responses.
Some very interesting and insightful.

With none of the historical, mythological, religious, cultural, literary, poetical, etc. connection to the past of the real world which made the original game so fascinating, realistic (given the necessarily accepted semi-fictional parameters of a fantasy based role-playing game), useful, and enjoyable?

I give the quote in bold to answer the unrealistic part.
I understand the paradox given the necessary parameters of a fantasy game.
The paradox however does not negate the truth of my statement.

What I mean by unrealistic is a flight from those very things that best inform a game in which more than mere diversionary entertainment can be extracted from the game.

When things are merely diversionary entertainment and escapism, with no real connection or link to the real world, they lack value other than diversionary entertainment.

In my opinion and way of looking at things, and this is my opinion, if I am to devote hours of my time that could be directed towards any useful pursuit then I wish to take away from that time and pursuit something other than just a temporary "pornographic" (in the widest sense of the term) and very self-absorbed, narrow, and limited experience.

I suspect I cannot state this any better, no matter how often reiterated and that those who understand understand, and those who do not, or have not yet considered the question, may not. But in my opinion it is a waste of time and energy I could better spend at far more profitable pursuits to sink more resources into a game than I could extract from the game in some useful way. And in some way which would be useful outside the narrow confines of the gaming environment. (This is not to say that it is not possible to produce and play very useful as well as enjoyable games, they are far from mutually exclusive traits, and I will devote time to what in my opinion is good and useful gaming in the same way I would train for athletics, develop a real skill in the real world, or study literature, or history.)

In other words the enjoyment of the game for me and my players comes from the fact that it adds something to real life, not distracts from or artificially substitutes for real life. That will not be the opinion of everyone, for people vary, but it is my opinion, and the opinion of my players. This is not to say a game cannot be escapist and enjoyable, but it is to say that if this is the entire point of the game, how it functions, or if it substitutes for instead of enhances real life, then it does nothing more than waste time at a pursuit of very doubtful value.

In my opinion then it is my hope, though I know few details, that this new edition will move back in the direction of being useful, more realistic, and enjoyable. That it will have some point and purpose other than just a game in order to game. That it wills serve some function greater than just killing time. That the game will be about more than just itself for sake of itself.

But I do not know.
That is what I was soliciting opinion about.

And I thank those who both agreed and disagreed or even misunderstood me.

But I hope someone can tell me in what direction they think the game will actually move.

The most obvious cue is the art direction of each edition.

A fascinating and insightful observation and one I was going to mention originally, but thought it might make the post too long and would distract from the overall point. So instead I used the example of modern fantasy writing versus Classical Mythological fantasy. But I definitely saw where you were going with this and your point.

You must be an old fart like I am.

If you think modern fantasy is vapid, you haven't read much modern fantasy.

Yes I have and I'm not much impressed either.
Though I think things are getting a'lot better than they were two or three years ago, that's for durn sure. If it keeps up it won't be as bad as it used to be. I'm gonna miss Harry Potter though.

I liked the comparison to bad video games, but you failed to also compare it to anime and WoW.

Made me laugh. Unfortunately I don't watch anime or play WOW.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you.

Anyways I hate to sound so pedantic about all of this. To me it's just a game, and one should maintain it in perspective and with a sense of humor.
It ain't exactly curing cancer, walking on Mars, or like posting on the internet. Well, maybe it is like posting on the internet.
Point is, I just happen to agree with myself on this particular matter.
Which works out quite conveniently as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jack7]

By the way, I'm old, got cases to review in the morning, and so I'm going to bed.
But please carry on.

I'm not being rude if I don't answer ya.
I'm just unconscious.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

In my opinion and way of looking at things, and this is my opinion, if I am to devote hours of my time that could be directed towards any useful pursuit then I wish to take away from that time and pursuit something other than just a temporary "pornographic" (in the widest sense of the term) and very self-absorbed, narrow, and limited experience.

Depends on what you consider a "useful pursuit." I consider getting together with friends and playing a game to be a very useful pursuit in and of itself. I don't need to somehow experience realism in the game I play with them, be it Monopoly or Life or D&D. All I'm interested in is a good time with good friends doing something fun. At 41, that kind of thing has gotten even more important due to how elusive it can be.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I didn't think the OP's post was that bad. <shrug>

Anyway. Jack7, Fourth Edition has classes with abilities that come from three sources: Arcane, Divine, and Martial. If you want to play as realistic game as possible, just cut any class that relies on Arcane or Divine.

But still... this is a game of heroic fantasy. Big heroes fighting big monsters for big rewards. Conan. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. That's what D&D *is*. If you're looking for a game with only mundane/real world abilities, you should probably just find a different system.

-z

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I didn't think the OP's post was that bad. <shrug>

Anyway. Jack7, Fourth Edition has classes with abilities that come from three sources: Arcane, Divine, and Martial. If you want to play as realistic game as possible, just cut any class that relies on Arcane or Divine.

But still... this is a game of heroic fantasy. Big heroes fighting big monsters for big rewards. Conan. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. That's what D&D *is*. If you're looking for a game with only mundane/real world abilities, you should probably just find a different system.

-z

I don't think his post was all that bad, either. However, I do think the last paragraph of your post is spot-on.

 

[Jack7]

But still... this is a game of heroic fantasy. Big heroes fighting big monsters for big rewards. Conan. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. That's what D&D *is*. If you're looking for a game with only mundane/real world abilities, you should probably just find a different system.

Well, one more a'fore I hit the sack.

I think you guys are misunderstanding what I mean by realism.
We use magic in our game.

By realism, given the parameters of a game about mythological and "fantasy subjects," I mean the stories and the game itself are tied to the real world, through myth, religion, culture, language, art, etc.

Not that it replicate the real world, but that it parallel it and draw inspiration from it, rather than try to develop an almost entirely "alien backdrop" as far removed from the real world as possible.

I know it's not a war-game (I play war-games too.), it's a role playing game.
I've probably been playing it a lot longer than some of you have been alive.

I'm saying that for a long time it's gone in the wrong direction in my opinion.
I'm wondering now if it might head in the right.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Wait, so your issue is with the setting? You'd rather have Thor instead of Kord, Ra instead of Pelor, and so on?

That's really easy to fix. Just find-and-replace the names of cities, organizations, and gods. Use real maps instead of fantasy maps. The rules of D&D have very little setting-specific limitations.

I guess I still don't understand what it is you're looking for.

-z

 

[FireLance]

By realism, given the parameters of a game about mythological and "fantasy subjects," I mean the stories and the game itself are tied to the real world, through myth, religion, culture, language, art, etc.

The "real world" is very broad, and stories and concepts that one person might not be familiar with (and hence, consider "unrealistic") may be prevalent in another culture. My culture has myths and literature about talented martial artists who do fantastic things: make prodigious leaps, paralyze with a touch, expel energy from their bodies, deflect hundreds of arrows, etc. I have less difficulty accepting these in my D&D because these are the stories I grew up with. It is one thing not to like them (in the same way that I don't like low-magic settings), but it is quite another to say that they have no tie to the real world.

I suspect that a lot of what many people see as strange or unrealistic is simply a matter of blending cultural concepts that developed independently in a world which was a lot less connected than it is now. One culture develops the idea of green-skinned goblins. Another develops tales of energy-throwing martial artists. A third ascribes strange and terrible powers to a mysterious group of assassins. When people from these three different cultures get together and swap childhood stories, you have the potential for them to create "green skinned races of silly flame throwing super assassins".

Not that it replicate the real world, but that it parallel it and draw inspiration from it, rather than try to develop an almost entirely "alien backdrop" as far removed from the real world as possible.

And what's wrong with that? I'm not fond of Call of Cthulu myself, but several people seem to like it, and enjoy games that contain elements of the Cthulu mythos.

 

[Pale]

I'm thinking what he's saying is "Eberron" is majorly not his cup of tea.