General Discussion Thread X

[Rystil Arden]

Can you start as a Paragon? ::Checks:: Ah, yes you can. Hmm... Rogue is close, though I think Bard might be appropriate as well (Jack of All Trades). I don't know for sure.

I knew there was something about Gray Elves somewhere, I just had to sit down and look for it. And here it is. It's not much at all, but it leaves a lot of room for you to flesh it out. Well, really, to give it a skeleton and vital organs and flesh, really. (Sorry, gross analogy.)

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I just read through Razh's history for the 19th time and I want to address something that's been bugging me for a while. What are the drow in LEW? We've kinda said that we don't want classic, evil, dark skinned elves from the Underdark, but I haven't seen anything specific. But we do have an Underdark, and we do have drow. (We have the half-drow template, too.) I wrote Razh's history thinking along FRCS lines, so illithids and drow drove his clan up out of the Underdark. But maybe that doesn't really make sense in LEW. Do we even have illithids?

I despise the copying the FR version of the drow beyond all else, to an incredible level of dislike (because so many people do it, and while it sort of works for FR, it is terrible, boring, and trite for most other settings). As such, I have been writing us away from that as much as possible. I also don't like the name drow for Dark Elves. I have had two adventures with encounters with dark elves and one other adventure in a dark elven ruin with dark elf plot elements. The basic idea is that most Dark Elves in LEW are called Nesfylim--they actually live on the surface, often in shallow caverns, in mountains, and in forests, and they believe that they will find a way to break out Mishtuli on the surface and not in Underdark, as evidenced by the failure of a major goddess (Lilitu) to make any headway in the Underdark. If my flavour has any weight, there should be few scattered tiny Kthonim outposts in the Underdark (these are not cities, but waypoints for those who seek to emulate Lilitu and search down there for Mishtuli--these are the Kthonim), and major Nesfylim surface / near-surface settlements.

As for illithids, we should try not to use them at all or use them sparingly--they are protected content. It's best to keep LEW fluff OGC friendly if we can (GMs could still use not OGC monster stats, such as illithids, for an enemy, but it shouldn't be required for a civilisation of beings).

 

[Trouvere]

I knew there was something about Gray Elves somewhere, I just had to sit down and look for it. And here it is. It's not much at all, but it leaves a lot of room for you to flesh it out. Well, really, to give it a skeleton and vital organs and flesh, really. (Sorry, gross analogy.)

I haven't got time to read through all that! Could someone summarise it for me? Also, quite an apposite analogy for Taelythenihel.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I haven't got time to read through all that! Could someone summarise it for me? Also, quite an apposite analogy for Taelythenihel.

Think of it like a skeleton that has no clothes or armor; you have to add those things yourself to make it complete.

I despise the copying the FR version of the drow beyond all else, to an incredible level of dislike (because so many people do it, and while it sort of works for FR, it is terrible, boring, and trite for most other settings).

Wow. I was unaware that you felt so strongly! I've read all the RA Salvatore books, I really love what he did with the drow. I do think the "good but discriminated against drow on the surface" character is now a cliche, but I don't think that invalidates the entire story.

Well, whatever, all I care about is what LEW's history is, and apparently a city of drow in the Underdark just doesn't work here. So what would? Has anybody set some adventures down Under? Or should I take creative liberty and find some good juicy monster to populate the area? (Or maybe I should leave it vague, so that when Razh finally goes down there to reclaim the Vundinn clan holdings, the monsters can be tailored to his character level! )

As for illithids, we should try not to use them at all or use them sparingly--they are protected content. It's best to keep LEW fluff OGC friendly if we can (GMs could still use not OGC monster stats, such as illithids, for an enemy, but it shouldn't be required for a civilisation of beings).

Aha, I did not know that. You're right then, we should avoid illithids. (Though I do think they're cool. =P )

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

Just to clear things up, I've consistently used the map spellings throughout the Wiki (So... Rivenblight. Stonespike Mountains. Larkenwold Reach. Hendralia.) The one problem with the map is the distances. When it was made, Enworld was rather small. But we decided to change its scale and increased its size to Earth-like proportions. So ignore the "2000 mile diameter" note on the world map, it's actually 25,000 miles from hexagonal tip to opposite hexagonal tip. Maybe I should edit the map to reflect that.

I am no longer sure how to spell Dungannon's city. I thought it was Ravendale. I didn't know there was any confusion there. EDIT: Er, oops. I thought wrong, I think. The Wiki says Ravensdale, and since I made the Wiki... that must be what I think. =P

 

[Patlin]

As for illithids, we should try not to use them at all or use them sparingly--they are protected content. It's best to keep LEW fluff OGC friendly if we can (GMs could still use not OGC monster stats, such as illithids, for an enemy, but it shouldn't be required for a civilisation of beings).

I've used a ragewalker, knights, and a ton of other non-SRD critters. I'm highly unclear why Illithids should be avoided. Protected content applies to comercial activity, not just playing the game. I dunno about the rest of you, but nobody pays me anything...

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I've used a ragewalker, knights, and a ton of other non-SRD critters. I'm highly unclear why Illithids should be avoided. Protected content applies to comercial activity, not just playing the game. I dunno about the rest of you, but nobody pays me anything...

I thought it applied to any published content. And since we're compiling and creating a world and posting it on the internets, we're publishing it. I think it's okay for DMs to use protected content in their games, but I'm not sure that it's okay for us to put illithids in our Underdark.

Of course, I'm no lawyer, and even if I was... I don't think we're gonna get sued or anything. So I don't really care about protected content! But it's slightly harder to get illithid material than with other monsters, and if we have a big Underdark threat, I want every DM to have equal opportunity in running an adventure vs. that threat.

 

[Patlin]

In spite of the fact that what we right on the boards is highly accessible, I feel confident that it constitutes playing the game rather than publishing. From a copyright perspective, publishing can include simply writing someting down, but I can hardly see WoTC becoming upset about a DM making notes about a mindflayer NPC prior to his face to face game.

We're not going to copy the stats for mindflayers out of the monster manual and publicly post them... WoTC would be rightly anoyed if we did that. Saying "there's a small colony of mindflayers about 100 miles from Rivenblight somewhat to the north, east and underground" shouldn't step on anyones toes.

After all, if a DM wants to make any reasonable use of those mindflayers, he'd have to go buy a monster manual... and that's the whole idea, from WoTC's perspective. Not that I imagine we have a substantial number of DMs out there who don't have a monster manual.

Even on the internet, playing the game is the intended use of the product, and that's all we are doing.

Illithids are harder to find than other SRD monsters, but they are in the core rules... which makes them a lot easier to find stats for than the LeShay I put in Under-The-Hill or the Ragewalker in the Faerie Woods. I've also put Githyanki in the Astral Plane, and I believe they've got all the same issues as mindflayers. (There's also one Githzerai wandering around in Heroes Must Rise, but I've been intentionally vague on his plane of origin so that other DMs can expand upon it however they like.)

I'm OK with stressing things people have more universal access to, but I don't think we need to tie our hands.

Edit: Forgot the ELH is in the SRD...

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

Ha, I did try to look for LeShay stats and the Unseelie template, but I couldn't find anything. Which is unfortunate, because I plan to run an adventure in the Wyrwood soon, and I hoped to tie in some fey from the Faerie Woods.

EDIT: Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I did find the LeShay. =P I forgot.

I'm OK with stressing things people have more universal access to, but I don't think we need to tie our hands.

Absolutely, we shouldn't limit ourselves.

But as cool as the illithids are (who doesn't love giant brains with awesome psychic powers fed by cold, super-intelligent mind-suckers?!), I'd like to have our own, unique Underdark threat. I don't feel as strongly about it as RA, but I'd like to give the Underenworld it's own, LEW feel. You know?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ha, I did try to look for LeShay stats and the Unseelie template, but I couldn't find anything. Which is unfortunate, because I plan to run an adventure in the Wyrwood soon, and I hoped to tie in some fey from the Faerie Woods.

EDIT: Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I did find the LeShay. =P I forgot.


Absolutely, we shouldn't limit ourselves.

But as cool as the illithids are (who doesn't love giant brains with awesome psychic powers fed by cold, super-intelligent mind-suckers?!), I'd like to have our own, unique Underdark threat. I don't feel as strongly about it as RA, but I'd like to give the Underenworld it's own, LEW feel. You know?

I actually don't mind the illithids--and they're certainly okay as a random encounter (Patlin, I do the same thing you do with non-SRD critters as encounters, but I do try to avoid them as important cultures / forces at play--I would probably not have put in the LeShay if it wasn't in the SRD, for instance).

The thing I feel strongly about is dark elves. And I've read the R.A. Salvatore books too (not all of them, though--I stopped reading them when I was older than like 13, so I've only read up to but not including 1000 Orcs, etc). They work for FR [SBLOCK=FR books aside]sort of, anyway--RA Salvatore was a great action writer but a terrible terrible terrible Realms scholar and pretty awful with inner consistency too, like when he had to retcon the gratingly annoying accent back onto Cattie-Brie in later printings of Crystal Shard. As a small child, I could still see continuity issues and problems with Salvatore's works--Drizz't abandoned by everyone and no deity would give him the time of day as a powerful drow ranger seeking redemption...hmm, but look Mr. Salvatore--there's a fricking drow goddess of good drow who live on the surface in the setting that you failed to read who is listed at a 50% chance to send an avatar every time there is a convert, even a 1st-level convert. Elaine Cunningham was much better at keeping it consistent)[/SBLOCK] But that aside aside, I see you do agree that our the FR drow are trite, overused, and belong in their own world, not here.

Let's make UnderEnworld different! I was steamed enough that we had to deal with a part spider dark elven goddess whose name sounds like Lolth (although if they had to do it, Lilitu from the ancient Mesopotamian is a cool name choice at least), but hopefully we can do something cool and unique to ENWorld that fits with the setting. I present my Nesfylim / Kthonim as Dark Elves for the first step.

 

[Solange]

Rules question, since I don't see an obvious answer and it was brought up in an approval of mine.

Can the human paragon choose Perform as their adaptive learning skill? Or does it have to be a single form of Perform? It only notes Knowledge as being special like this, and I've never seen Perform listed separately in a class, so I figured it was fine.

If not, I'll just change it, but I want to make sure it's correct, and I can see the judge's point.