Generation Legacy the Next Generation of OOC

[Shalimar]

Yea, but if you cut all those corners yours saves aren't equal to pl, and ranged attacks fall further behind (currently at 7 of 12). Dodge focus is viable though with Uncanny Dodge though.

 

[Victim]

Yea, but if you cut all those corners yours saves aren't equal to pl, and ranged attacks fall further behind (currently at 7 of 12). Dodge focus is viable though with Uncanny Dodge though.

So? If you suck at ranged attacks, then sucking a little bit more is hardly crippling.

And while falling behind on saves (or other PL related traits) isn't desireable, it's a matter opportunity costs. If you think that those 3 points are better spent on other things, then it's not a problem to fall behind.

 

[Shalimar]

I guess so, I still think it'd be better to be a PL every 20PPs or so.

I am still curious as to how you would have balanced Kelly and Ryan to the other characters though Victim, your pretty rules savy.

 

[Shalimar]

Since we were discussing Ryan and Kelly's being unbalanced I went and looked at his character sheet to get a better understanding of what I was talking about and I ran into a problem.

Ryan as is right now is at 176pp/165pp; over spent by 11pp. 10 of those PPs are in Ryan's powers. The other pp is from the noticible drawback, I thought Ryan bought it off since he doesn't glow anymore except when he uses his powers? By default all of his active powers are already noticeable. If the noticeable drawback is still valid he is 10pp over his 165pp limit.

His powers are 96 pp not 86pp:
[10pp] Flight +5
[33pp] Force Field +11 (Impervious 11, Reaction 11)
[12pp] Immunity (Life Support 9, Starvation and Thirst 1, Sleep 1, Own Powers 1)

[34pp] Cosmic Energy Control +11 (Penetrating 9; Improved Range 1, Affect Insubstantial 2)
[1pp] AP: Blast +11 (Area 11; Progression 1) [34/34]
[1pp] AP: Corrosion +11 (Reversible, Incurable, Affect Insubstantial (2), Slow Fade (2), Split Attack, Extended Reach (2), Precise) [32/34pp]
[1pp] AP: Super Strength +16 (Ground Strike, Precise)[34/34]
[1pp] AP: Healing +10(Total 10; Extended Range, Persistant, Regrowth, Reversible)[34/34pp]
[1pp] AP: Transform +11 [Inanimate](Touch -11, Full Range -11; Extended Reach) [34/34pp]
[1pp] AP: Boost +16 (All Attributes) (Self Only (-16); Slow Fade 2(5 min/pp)) [34/34pp]
[1pp] AP: Strike [This AP costs more then 34pp & breaks damage limit]

10+33+12+34+7(APs) = 96pps

As to my note on the last AP (Strike) you have it listed like this:
-Strike +11 + Aura + Selective + Penetrating +4 AND Strike +1 + Mighty + Penetrating +3

This actually breaks the damage cap, your max damage is +11 so the second Strike and the Mighty break the limit, removing them you are down to:
Strike +11 (Aura 11, Penetrating 7; Selective (on Aura))

Due to the errata on the MnM Core Ruless Aura costs 3pp/rank meaning the AP is at 52/34pp
assuming you wanted to maintain the penetrating and aura the power would look like this:
Strike +9 (Aura 6, Penetrating 5; Selective(Aura), Mighty)
With the mighty you'd still be doing +11 damage but the Aura and Penetrating are reduced to keep things within the 34pp total for the AP

 

[Victim]

Reaction FF is an AP of Impervious FF, not an extra. It can be hard but brittle, or softer but reflexive - in combat, it basically works out to ignoring lower power attacks (often Area powers after the save for half) versus a field that can be maintained while stunned. Being able to use APs (and EE) is the only thing that makes FF decent anyway. Impervious, Reaction FF is basically no better than Impervious Protection and costs quite a bit more. This accounts for the "extra" 10 pp.

Ryan's STR fully boosted is 30, the extra strike in the Aura slot bumps the punching people attack up +11 damage. Aura damage is separate. So Ryan is hitting for +11 (3 Pen) directly with a +11 Aura (Pen 4 or something).

You're right in that the Aura hasn't been changed to reflect recent changes in absense of any comments that characters should be updated. Considering some of the other dubious official changes and clarifications - notably grappling - I'm not sure that working through official rules alterations without GM's take is the best plan. Like a mentioned above, the errata for Aura rewards weird powers such as Emotion Control Aura as opposed to the more conventional flaming type ones, which seems problematic mechanically and thematically. Besides, Ryan seems to prefer Corrosion anyway, when killing might be acceptable (non lethal disintegration just doesn't seem right). Assuming rational play, that suggests that the value of Aura has been somewhat overstated - mostly because smart foes don't have to attack the guy with Aura in melee. Simply attacking one of the other people on the team totally negates the defensive effect of Aura for no extra cost.

I think the drawback makes stealth (visual) impossible while the powers are in use, no doubt amongst other things. Flight is noticeable, but not necessarily glaringly obvious either. Also, while the use of Boost is noticeable, the obviousness of the enhanced stats for the duration isn't necessarily clear. But really, he had a 2 point drawback (glows all the time). One point has spent to buy it off. So now he has a 1 point drawback (glows some of time) - the obvious next step down.

 

[Victim]

I guess so, I still think it'd be better to be a PL every 20PPs or so.

I am still curious as to how you would have balanced Kelly and Ryan to the other characters though Victim, your pretty rules savy.

Maybe. On the other hand, a larger number of pp per PL makes for more widely skilled characters which be less appropriate for younger characters like those in Gen Leg. Their power is now (not that they were too weak before) sufficient to stand in the big leagues, but they don't have the broader experiences of some of the older elites.

I don't think I'm that rules savvy. The messageboard format gives me plenty of time to think, look things up, and compose a response; I've messed around with 2e far less than 1e. That being said, I at least like to think I'm competent.

As far as changes go, in absense of people persuading me otherwise, I'd want lots. Ryan and Kelly wouldn't be the only people to have things chopped up. Of course, if people really want mechanically valid things, I sometimes become soft and weak. Also, I try to require a tighter special effect for various powers and such than Toki does.

First thing's first. Boost is toast. Ryan's boost is remarkably less broken than it was before (no super dex to defense), but boosting several things at once (either via several traits, or just boosting one wide attribute) is problematic. Boost in an array is just badness all around anyway, since the benefits stick around long after the power is switched.

Area + Selective attacks are on my watch list. They're kind of like getting lots of extra attacks

Buying Immunity to the powers of specific individuals is pretty much BS IMO. If you

Tired. Finish later.

 

[Shalimar]

Reaction FF is an AP of Impervious FF, not an extra. It can be hard but brittle, or softer but reflexive - in combat, it basically works out to ignoring lower power attacks (often Area powers after the save for half) versus a field that can be maintained while stunned. Being able to use APs (and EE) is the only thing that makes FF decent anyway. Impervious, Reaction FF is basically no better than Impervious Protection and costs quite a bit more. This accounts for the "extra" 10 pp.

Ah, sorry, it wasn't actually written like that on the sheet so I couldn't tell. Something about that is getting my hackles up though, not sure what in specific about it, and it is following the letter of the rules.

Ryan's STR fully boosted is 30, the extra strike in the Aura slot bumps the punching people attack up +11 damage. Aura damage is separate. So Ryan is hitting for +11 (3 Pen) directly with a +11 Aura (Pen 4 or something).

You're right in that the Aura hasn't been changed to reflect recent changes in absense of any comments that characters should be updated. Considering some of the other dubious official changes and clarifications - notably grappling - I'm not sure that working through official rules alterations without GM's take is the best plan. Like a mentioned above, the errata for Aura rewards weird powers such as Emotion Control Aura as opposed to the more conventional flaming type ones, which seems problematic mechanically and thematically. Besides, Ryan seems to prefer Corrosion anyway, when killing might be acceptable (non lethal disintegration just doesn't seem right). Assuming rational play, that suggests that the value of Aura has been somewhat overstated - mostly because smart foes don't have to attack the guy with Aura in melee. Simply attacking one of the other people on the team totally negates the defensive effect of Aura for no extra cost.

A more up to date printing of the Core rules makes it clear that it costs 1pp/rank but only if the power is already touch range and sustained. The ability to inflict multiple damage saves on a target per round is an incredibly strong ability, and clearly worth more then 1pp/rank. I also forgot to take into account that once a power is an aura power it cannot be used as a non-aura so:

Aura 11 (Selective, Penetrating 4; 48pp), Strike 2 (mighty; penetrating 3; 6pp) so it would be 54/34pp

I think the drawback makes stealth (visual) impossible while the powers are in use, no doubt amongst other things. Flight is noticeable, but not necessarily glaringly obvious either. Also, while the use of Boost is noticeable, the obviousness of the enhanced stats for the duration isn't necessarily clear. But really, he had a 2 point drawback (glows all the time). One point has spent to buy it off. So now he has a 1 point drawback (glows some of time) - the obvious next step down.

All of his powers are noticible regardless of the drawback since they are all active non-mental powers , the drawback is just a free point. It should be at most a complication where he gets an HP when it actually affects him. the very vast majority of the time it doesn't affect him, I don't think he has ever tried to sneak anywhere so it really is just a free point. It'd be like taking allergic to kryptonite if kryptonite never actually made it into the game.

EDIT: 1 other problem with the boost is that thanks to the Force-Field, its illegal. You are not allowed to go over your cap in anyway, and by boosting Con when his toughness save is already at +13 via the reaction force-field the con boost breaks the cap, so he needs to drop the constitution boost.

 

[Victim]

Ah, sorry, it wasn't actually written like that on the sheet so I couldn't tell. Something about that is getting my hackles up though, not sure what in specific about it, and it is following the letter of the rules.

Yeah, it's almost as good as Protection. I think it was written the same way as his other AP structure; extras generally went on the same line.

A more up to date printing of the Core rules makes it clear that it costs 1pp/rank but only if the power is already touch range and sustained. The ability to inflict multiple damage saves on a target per round is an incredibly strong ability, and clearly worth more then 1pp/rank. I also forgot to take into account that once a power is an aura power it cannot be used as a non-aura so:

Aura 11 (Selective, Penetrating 4; 48pp), Strike 2 (mighty; penetrating 3; 6pp) so it would be 54/34pp

It'd have to be strike 1.

And I've already mentioned that I often find the rules changes dubious, especially in this case. Sure, the ability to force 2 damage per hit is pretty nasty, but not really any more so than linked attacks.

EDIT: 1 other problem with the boost is that thanks to the Force-Field, its illegal. You are not allowed to go over your cap in anyway, and by boosting Con when his toughness save is already at +13 via the reaction force-field the con boost breaks the cap, so he needs to drop the constitution boost.

Dropping the Con boost is unnccessary. "Boosted Con doesn't add to toughness: -0" Since Ryan's stats aren't including the extra Toughness, it's in place by default.

 

[Shalimar]

Dropping the Con boost is unnccessary. "Boosted Con doesn't add to toughness: -0" Since Ryan's stats aren't including the extra Toughness, it's in place by default

I guess so, it does tend to make it into Boost Fortitude Save, but as a -0 its fine as long as it is dilineated so that if his Force Field is drained or nullified he can't in fact use that extra Con for toughness saves. It just goes back to the overall balance problem of putting a boost (all of anything) with slow fade into an array. All it takes is a move action and its an extra 64pp worth of stats that are there for longer then any of the combats we have seen previously, (50 rounds/pp). In effect thats 63 free pp since its an AP. If it wasn't part of an array, or if the bonus disappeared when he switched to another AP it would be fine, but as an AP it breaks the intent of the AP system in that the benifit it provides remains active even while using other APs. I'm kinda disappointed that it wasn't in the rules that boosts can't be in arrays, or that the benifit fades.

It'd have to be strike 1.

And I've already mentioned that I often find the rules changes dubious, especially in this case. Sure, the ability to force 2 damage per hit is pretty nasty, but not really any more so than linked attacks.

Actually you aren't allowed to link multiple attacks of the same type, aura is the only way to force 2 saves. Linked attacks of different saves are allowed subject to GM approval, but if there are 2 saves of the same type the defender only needs to make 1 save and it works for both (and a hp works for both). Aura is the sole exception to this rule.

 

[Agamon]

Wow, I'm considered a rules guru hereabouts, but you two are making my eyes glaze over.