Generic Dragon: Help with CR/LA!

[RangerWickett]

Okay, consider this:

A wolf is a medium animal, and a wolf can kill a man. I would like to think that a medium dragon would be as physically strong as a wolf, but with wings, a breath weapon, and better AC.

A tiger is a large animal, and can easily kill several men. A large dragon should be dangerous like a tiger, but with a breath weapon, wings, much better AC, and some special draconic attacks.

. . . A baby dragon is the size of a cat. Sure, a baby dragon could kick a cat's ass, but a cat ain't never gonna kill a man. Make the baby dragon at most CR 1/2. It's a tiny critter. It should be cute, appropriate for a familiar, not for an actual monster.

I love the rest of what you've done, though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yo U_K!

Hiya mate!

That's exactly as wrong as I want to be! I'm not designing a new game after all. Just a better widgit to fit into the game.

Then job well done.

Apparently some people still even use the official CR method.

I suppose you can lead a gamer to water but you can't make them drink.

As to HP, if you don't want to use the admittedly "unrealisitic" mechanism,

Its unrealistic for creatures of natural physiognomy to have extra Hit Dice for no reason.

go VP/WP or just use the Injury system in UA.

No need.

HP are what they are, which is NOT a clean, "realistic" mechanism. They're one of the oldest parts of the game -- they just CAN'T be cleaned up without destroying some of the mental cinema that is D&D.

My argument is not against Hit Points, but rather Hit Dice.

HOWEVER, my replies notwithstanding, let's make a new thread to discuss what HP really are and how they could be "fixed", please?

I apologise for the minor hijack.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Since when can't they?

I'll add class levels to anything, man.

My question was rhetorical.

Dragons should gain Hit Dice derived from Size but any learnt skills should be catered for by Class Levels, not automatically bestowed just because a dragon grows up (unless you plan to apply that logic evenly to all creatures).

Incidentally (sorry Nifft I'll keep it short); I would advocate all humanoid races starting with Hit Dice as well.

Halflings & Gnomes: 1 HD
Elves: 2 HD
Dwarves; Humans; Half-Elves; Half-Orcs: 3HD
Ogres: 4HD

The attraction therefore being that to even up character parties lower HD races would have more class levels to address the imbalance.

 

[RangerWickett]

Incidentally (sorry Nifft I'll keep it short); I would advocate all humanoid races starting with Hit Dice as well.

Halflings & Gnomes: 1 HD
Elves: 2 HD
Dwarves; Humans; Half-Elves; Half-Orcs: 3HD
Ogres: 4HD

The attraction therefore being that to even up character parties lower HD races would have more class levels to address the imbalance.

If you want to open a new thread to discuss this, I'd be interested. I can see things going two ways here. One is the cross-balance approach, i.e., "Of course your halfling makes a crappy fighter! He's three feet tall! But that's okay, because he's got a higher AC and saves." The other is the parallel balance approach, i.e., "It doesn't matter that a halfling is smaller. His longsword should do d8 because that's balanced. He shouldn't get a bonus to AC, though. All things should be equal to their closest counterpart."

I prefer the second system, for ease of play. If all characters can swing a one-handed melee weapon for d8 damage and use a shield at the same time, it's easier for me to deal with, and it puts more onus upon the players to figure out how a pixie can do that much damage in physical combat.

On the other hand, that system makes you scratch your head as to why a giant's weapon doesn't do very much damage. (The answer? Levels and hit dice should provide a bonus to damage.) The parallel balance system also gives you fewer anchor points -- things you can move around to adjust balance. It's give and take.

In general, I think a level-based system works better for a parallel balance ruleset, while a cross-balance is ideally point-based, kinda like GURPS. And I don't like heavy point systems, especially ones where drawbacks get you extra points. Logically, there ought to be very few surviving adventuring halfling fighters -- most would be wizards or rogues, because that's what they're suited for.

Oh, and Dragons ought to have a CR scale like I list below. Take the needed CR and design backwards to find the right power level, I'd say.

Age Category - CR
1 - 1/2
2 - 1
3 - 3
4 - 6
5 - 8
6 - 10
7 - 12
8 - 14
9 - 17
10 - 20
11 - 22
12 - 25

 

[Nifft]

I'll start a new thread with my house rules on race & HP, which seems a natural jumping off point. This post will be updated with the URL of that thread for the truley lazy!

-- N

PS: MORE DRAGON TALK (please!)]

PPS: Go chat about HP over here!

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Y'know what Nifft? I completely forgot to say that, despite the wyrmling size thing, I really like these dragons. I'm seeing a pattern here...I seem to love everything you make...all of the things you've done recently that I've seen I've really liked. You rock muchly.

 

[CRGreathouse]

--double post--

 

[CRGreathouse]

I've been working on a similar project for some time, Nifft. It might be useful for us to compare notes...

In my campaign, dragons are all the same race, and can 'specialize' over time by choosing an elemental affiliation. As a result, I came up with abilities and estimated CR at every age level -- actually at every HD, since everything's done by formula.

Here's an example of what I have:

Wyrmling dragon: CR 5; Medium Dragon; HD 6d12+12; hp 51; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 natural); Atks bite +8 melee (2d6+2), 2 claws +3 melee (1d6+1); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 5 ft/5 ft; AL any; SV Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 6, Cha 13.

Great wyrm dragon: CR 23; Colossal Dragon; HD 39d12+390; hp 643; Init -2; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 39 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +39 natural); Atks bite +49 melee (6d8+18), 2 claws +44 melee (4d6+9), tail slap +44 melee (4d6+27); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +31, Ref +19, Will +27; Str 47, Dex 7, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 28.
Sorcerer Spells Known (cast 6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/6, caster level 21): ...

The older dragons will have CRs that look low because I'm using the epic rules as a baseline instead of the nonepic CR 21+ monsters in the MM & MM2.

Would these be useful to you?

 

[Nifft]

I've been working on a similar project for some time, Nifft. It might be useful for us to compare notes...

Agreed!

Would these be useful to you?

I have no idea, but I'd sure love to see them!

More ideas and opinions can only lead to a better finished rule set for everyone.

-- N

 

[CRGreathouse]

Wyrmling dragon: CR 5; Medium Dragon; HD 6d12+12; hp 51; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; AC 17 (+1 Dex, +6 natural); Atks bite +8 melee (2d6+2), 2 claws +3 melee (1d6+1); SA frightful presence, spells; SQ dragon, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 5 ft/5 ft; AL any; SV Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 6, Cha 13.

Wyrmling dragon: CR 5.5; Medium Dragon; HD 7d12+14; hp 59; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; AC 18 (+1 Dex, +7 natural); Atks bite +9 melee (2d6+2), 2 claws +4 melee (1d6+1); SA frightful presence, spells; SQ dragon, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 5 ft/5 ft; AL any; SV Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 14.

Wyrmling dragon: CR 6; Large Dragon; HD 8d12+24; hp 76; Init +1; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 18 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural); Atks bite +10 melee (3d6+3), 2 claws +5 melee (1d8+1), tail slap +5 melee (1d8+4); SA frightful presence, spells; SQ dragon, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +4; Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 7, Cha 15.

Very young dragon: CR 6.5; Large Dragon; HD 9d12+27; hp 85; Init +1; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 19 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural); Atks bite +11 melee (3d6+3), 2 claws +6 melee (1d8+1), tail slap +6 melee (1d8+4); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +5; Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16.

Very young dragon: CR 7; Large Dragon; HD 10d12+30; hp 95; Init +1; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural); Atks bite +13 melee (3d6+4), 2 claws +8 melee (1d8+2), tail slap +8 melee (1d8+6); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +6; Str 18, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 16.

Very young dragon: CR 7.5; Large Dragon; HD 11d12+33; hp 104; Init +1; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 21 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +11 natural); Atks bite +14 melee (3d6+4), 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+2), tail slap +9 melee (1d8+6); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +6; Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 9, Cha 17.

Young dragon: CR 8; Large Dragon; HD 12d12+48; hp 126; Init +1; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 22 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural); Atks bite +16 melee (3d6+5), 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+2), tail slap +11 melee (1d8+7); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +8; Str 20, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 17.

Young dragon: CR 9; Large Dragon; HD 13d12+52; hp 136; Init 0; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 22 (-1 size, +13 natural); Atks bite +17 melee (3d6+5), 2 claws +12 melee (1d8+2), tail slap +12 melee (1d8+7); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +8; Str 21, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 18.

Young dragon: CR 9.5; Large Dragon; HD 14d12+56; hp 147; Init 0; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 23 (-1 size, +14 natural); Atks bite +19 melee (3d6+6), 2 claws +14 melee (1d8+3), tail slap +14 melee (1d8+9); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 21, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9; Str 22, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 18.

Juvenile dragon: CR 10; Large Dragon; HD 15d12+60; hp 157; Init 0; Spd 35 ft, fly 50 ft (good); AC 24 (-1 size, +15 natural); Atks bite +20 melee (3d6+6), 2 claws +15 melee (1d8+3), tail slap +15 melee (1d8+9); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 21, DR 5/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +10; Str 23, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 19.

Juvenile dragon: CR 10.5; Huge Dragon; HD 16d12+80; hp 184; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 24 (-2 size, +16 natural); Atks bite +21 melee (3d8+7), 2 claws +16 melee (2d6+3), tail slap +16 melee (2d6+10); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 22, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +11; Str 24, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 20.

Juvenile dragon: CR 11; Huge Dragon; HD 17d12+85; hp 195; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 25 (-2 size, +17 natural); Atks bite +22 melee (3d8+7), 2 claws +17 melee (2d6+3), tail slap +17 melee (2d6+10); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 22, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +11; Str 25, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 20.

Young adult dragon: CR 12; Huge Dragon; HD 18d12+90; hp 207; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 26 (-2 size, +18 natural); Atks bite +24 melee (3d8+8), 2 claws +19 melee (2d6+4), tail slap +19 melee (2d6+12); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 23, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +12; Str 26, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 20.

Young adult dragon: CR 13; Huge Dragon; HD 19d12+95; hp 218; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 27 (-2 size, +19 natural); Atks bite +25 melee (3d8+8), 2 claws +20 melee (2d6+4), tail slap +20 melee (2d6+12); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 24, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13; Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 21.

Young adult dragon: CR 13.5; Huge Dragon; HD 20d12+120; hp 250; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 28 (-2 size, +20 natural); Atks bite +27 melee (3d8+9), 2 claws +22 melee (2d6+4), tail slap +22 melee (2d6+13); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 25, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +14; Str 28, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 21.

Adult dragon: CR 14; Huge Dragon; HD 21d12+126; hp 262; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 29 (-2 size, +21 natural); Atks bite +28 melee (3d8+9), 2 claws +23 melee (2d6+4), tail slap +23 melee (2d6+13); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 25, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +14; Str 29, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 22.

Adult dragon: CR 15; Huge Dragon; HD 22d12+132; hp 275; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 30 (-2 size, +22 natural); Atks bite +30 melee (3d8+10), 2 claws +25 melee (2d6+5), tail slap +25 melee (2d6+15); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 26, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +15; Str 30, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 22.

Adult dragon: CR 15.5; Huge Dragon; HD 23d12+138; hp 287; Init 0; Spd 40 ft, fly 70 ft (average); AC 31 (-2 size, +23 natural); Atks bite +31 melee (3d8+10), 2 claws +26 melee (2d6+5), tail slap +26 melee (2d6+15); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 27, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 15 ft/10 ft (15 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +16; Str 31, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 23.

Mature adult dragon: CR 16; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 24d12+168; hp 324; Init 0; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 30 (-4 size, +24 natural); Atks bite +31 melee (4d8+11), 2 claws +26 melee (2d8+5), tail slap +26 melee (2d8+16); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 27, DR 10/magic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +21, Ref +14, Will +17; Str 32, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 23.

Mature adult dragon: CR 17; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 25d12+175; hp 337; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 30 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +25 natural); Atks bite +32 melee (4d8+11), 2 claws +27 melee (2d8+5), tail slap +27 melee (2d8+16); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 28, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +21, Ref +13, Will +17; Str 33, Dex 9, Con 24, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 24.

Mature adult dragon: CR 18; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 26d12+182; hp 351; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 31 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +26 natural); Atks bite +34 melee (4d8+12), 2 claws +29 melee (2d8+6), tail slap +29 melee (2d8+18); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 29, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +18; Str 34, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 24.

Old dragon: CR 19; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 27d12+189; hp 364; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 32 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +27 natural); Atks bite +35 melee (4d8+12), 2 claws +30 melee (2d8+6), tail slap +30 melee (2d8+18); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 30, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +18; Str 35, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 24.

Old dragon: CR 19.5; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 28d12+224; hp 406; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 33 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +28 natural); Atks bite +37 melee (4d8+13), 2 claws +32 melee (2d8+6), tail slap +32 melee (2d8+19); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 31, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +24, Ref +15, Will +20; Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 21, Wis 18, Cha 25.

Old dragon: CR 20; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 29d12+232; hp 420; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 34 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +29 natural); Atks bite +38 melee (4d8+13), 2 claws +33 melee (2d8+6), tail slap +33 melee (2d8+19); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 31, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +24, Ref +15, Will +20; Str 37, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 21, Wis 18, Cha 25.

Very old dragon: CR 20.5; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 30d12+240; hp 435; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 35 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +30 natural); Atks bite +40 melee (4d8+14), 2 claws +35 melee (2d8+7), tail slap +35 melee (2d8+21); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 32, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +25, Ref +16, Will +21; Str 38, Dex 9, Con 27, Int 21, Wis 19, Cha 25.

Very old dragon: CR 21; Gargantuan Dragon; HD 31d12+248; hp 449; Init -1; Spd 45 ft, fly 90 ft (poor); AC 36 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +31 natural); Atks bite +41 melee (4d8+14), 2 claws +36 melee (2d8+7), tail slap +36 melee (2d8+21); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 32, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft (20 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +25, Ref +16, Will +21; Str 39, Dex 8, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 26.

Very old dragon: CR 21.25; Colossal Dragon; HD 32d12+288; hp 496; Init -1; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 33 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +32 natural); Atks bite +39 melee (6d8+15), 2 claws +34 melee (4d6+7), tail slap +34 melee (4d6+22); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 32, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +27, Ref +17, Will +22; Str 40, Dex 8, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 19, Cha 26.

Ancient dragon: CR 21.5; Colossal Dragon; HD 33d12+297; hp 511; Init -1; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 34 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +33 natural); Atks bite +40 melee (6d8+15), 2 claws +35 melee (4d6+7), tail slap +35 melee (4d6+22); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 33, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +27, Ref +17, Will +23; Str 41, Dex 8, Con 28, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 26.

Ancient dragon: CR 21.75; Colossal Dragon; HD 34d12+306; hp 527; Init -1; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 35 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +34 natural); Atks bite +42 melee (6d8+16), 2 claws +37 melee (4d6+8), tail slap +37 melee (4d6+24); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 33, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +28, Ref +18, Will +24; Str 42, Dex 8, Con 29, Int 23, Wis 20, Cha 27.

Ancient dragon: CR 22; Colossal Dragon; HD 35d12+315; hp 542; Init -1; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 36 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +35 natural); Atks bite +43 melee (6d8+16), 2 claws +38 melee (4d6+8), tail slap +38 melee (4d6+24); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 33, DR 10/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +28, Ref +18, Will +24; Str 43, Dex 8, Con 29, Int 23, Wis 20, Cha 27.

Wyrm dragon: CR 22.25; Colossal Dragon; HD 36d12+360; hp 594; Init -1; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 37 (-8 size, -1 Dex, +36 natural); Atks bite +45 melee (6d8+17), 2 claws +40 melee (4d6+8), tail slap +40 melee (4d6+25); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 33, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +30, Ref +19, Will +25; Str 44, Dex 8, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 21, Cha 28.

Wyrm dragon: CR 22.5; Colossal Dragon; HD 37d12+370; hp 610; Init -2; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 37 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +37 natural); Atks bite +46 melee (6d8+17), 2 claws +41 melee (4d6+8), tail slap +41 melee (4d6+25); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +30, Ref +18, Will +25; Str 45, Dex 7, Con 30, Int 24, Wis 21, Cha 28.

Wyrm dragon: CR 22.75; Colossal Dragon; HD 38d12+380; hp 627; Init -2; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 38 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +38 natural); Atks bite +48 melee (6d8+18), 2 claws +43 melee (4d6+9), tail slap +43 melee (4d6+27); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +31, Ref +19, Will +26; Str 46, Dex 7, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 21, Cha 28.

Great wyrm dragon: CR 23; Colossal Dragon; HD 39d12+390; hp 643; Init -2; Spd 50 ft, fly 110 ft (clumsy); AC 39 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +39 natural); Atks bite +49 melee (6d8+18), 2 claws +44 melee (4d6+9), tail slap +44 melee (4d6+27); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 30 ft/20 ft (30 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +31, Ref +19, Will +27; Str 47, Dex 7, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 22, Cha 28.

Great wyrm dragon: CR 23; Colossal+ Dragon; HD 40d12+440; hp 700; Init -2; Spd 55 ft, fly 130 ft (clumsy); AC 40 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +40 natural); Atks bite +51 melee (6d8+19), 2 claws +46 melee (4d6+9), tail slap +46 melee (4d6+28); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 40 ft/30 ft (35 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +33, Ref +20, Will +28; Str 48, Dex 7, Con 32, Int 25, Wis 22, Cha 29.

Great wyrm dragon: CR 23; Colossal+ Dragon; HD 41d12+451; hp 717; Init -2; Spd 55 ft, fly 130 ft (clumsy); AC 41 (-8 size, -2 Dex, +41 natural); Atks bite +52 melee (6d8+19), 2 claws +47 melee (4d6+9), tail slap +47 melee (4d6+28); SA frightful presence; SQ dragon, SR 34, DR 15/epic, blindsense 60 ft, keen senses; Space/Reach 40 ft/30 ft (35 ft with bite); AL any; SV Fort +33, Ref +20, Will +28; Str 49, Dex 7, Con 32, Int 25, Wis 22, Cha 29.

********************

There's no quick way to include the spells, but the progression rises smoothly +2 caster levels per 3 levels, from 1 at 9HD (very young) to 25 at 45HD (advanced great wyrm).

I chose to use fractional CRs for the time being to differentiate between similar challenges. I'd suggest rounding 0.5+ up for 'normal' numbers.