Gestalt, Prestige Classes and Feats

[Binho]

Hi everyone.
I was making a gestalt build and encountered some doubts, especially about prestige classes. This three points are the main issue:

1- Prestige class
I couldn't understand the form that PrCs influence the saves and attack bonus. I know that I can't fuse two PrCs so I would apreciate some exemple:
Level 1: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +0, Fort+2,Ref+2,Will+2
Level 2: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +1, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 3: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +2, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 4: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 5: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 6: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +4, Fort+5,Ref+5,Will+5
Level 7: Sorcerer7/Swiftblade1» Base Attack +5, ... *HERE COMES THE DOUBT» ????
Level 8: Sorcerer8/Cloistered Cleric1»*HERE COMES ANOTHER DOUBT

The sorcerer lv 7 gains +0 in all saves and Swiftblade 1 gains Fort +0, Ref+2, Will+2. That's the right interpretation?
Or the correct interpretation would be: sorcerer Lv7 has Fort+2, Ref+2, Will+5 that is better than the saves from Swiftblade, so no saves would be affected for a level up 6-7

The second * is for a doubt about Base Attack Bonus: both sorcerer and cloistered cleric have weak BAB, but if I take an even-level of sorcerer I get +1 of BAB?

2-Multiclass penalty
The rules don't mention if the rules of XP penalty for multiclassing are mantained. It's still applied to gestalt? If so, how would that work?

3-Combo Feats
I know that prestige classes that combine two or more classes are not allowed, but, by RAW, feats like Ascetic Mage are still allowed. That is a necessary feat to reduce MAD problems.
Let's say the DM allowed this feat, how would it work in a gestalt build like sorcerer 10/Cloistered cleric 1//monk 6/Fighter 2/Paladin3?
It would have an unarmed damage of a monk lv6 (equal monk class lv), lv10 (equal sorc class lv), lv11 (equal to monk+sorc, limited to HD) or lv16(everybody goes wild!!!)?


I would really apreciate if someone shows a complete build gestalt showing saves, BAB and multiclass PrC. Or maybe some site that explain this deeply.
Thanks in advance!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to answer with what IMO is how gestalt should be handled, rather than the RAW. Because the RAW for gestalt is pretty skeletal and by way of not covering issues, leaves them wide open to abuse by default. If you wanted a RAW answer, sorry, I just can't even stomach to type that out.

BAB and Saves: How I do gestalt is that BAB and Base Saves are checked using what I call a "running tally" while hp and skill points are determined simply based on "whichever is higher" at a given level. By that I mean, for BAB, base fort save, ref save, and will save, the player does a sum of what each "side" of the gestalt would provide, and takes the better number. For hp and skill points, past levels are irrelevant, just take the higher value. An illustration, using a lot of multiclassing, just to make it easier to demonstrate (a note, I and most others use "//" to denote the divide between side of a gestalt, rather than the usual single / to separate classes in a multiclass):

Say you had someone take the following insanely multiclassed path...
Level 1: Barbarian//Bard
Level 2: Wizard//Fighter
Level 3: Ranger//Sorcerer

So, on one side, he is Barb 1 / Wiz 1 / Ranger 1, on the 2nd side he is Bard 1 / Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 1. Tally the BAB and each save for both sides...

1st side: BAB +2, Fort +4, Reflex +2, Will +2
2nd side: BAB +1, Fort +2, Reflex +2, Will +4

So, as of 3rd level, he has BAB +2, Fort +4, Reflex +2, and Will +4. It's actually pretty simple, you're doing the exact same calculations you would for any character's saves and BAB, just once for each side and taking the higher in each category at the end. HP and skill points are even easier, just look at each level on its own. This character would have d12 HD (Barb) and 6 + int skills (bard) at level 1, d10 HD (Fighter) and 2 + int skills (either Fighter or Wiz) at level 2, and d10 HD and 6 + int skills (both from Ranger, sorc is worse for both) at level 3.

If you did base saves and BAB each level based on which was higher, you'd have a horrifically broken system as you yourself alluded to. A Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 would end up with full BAB! (level 1, Ftr 1 gives +1 BAB, level 2, Wiz 2 gives +1 BAB, level 3, Sorc 2 gives +1 BAB, etc...)
Note, you could also implement the fractional saves and BAB rules into this system about as easily as you could into a standard game, if you wanted to, as well.


*Phew* Though part over, onto your other queries.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Multiclass penalty: There is no guidance on this by RAW. I'd say run it the same as you would normally. Some hate the penalty and don't use it at all. For those that do...gestalt should make heavy multiclassing on either side unnecessary, I'd have no sympathy and apply the 20% penalty even if only 1 side of the gestalt character had uneven levels.

You definitely do not have to keep your levels across the gestalt divide even, though. A Fighter 10 / Barbarian 10 // Wizard 20 is absolutely fine, only uneven levels within the same side of the gestalt should count. And as usual, prestige classes don't hurt you there.


Combo feats: I agree with you, the feats often have side benefits other than just the level stacking (Song of the White Raven lets you Inspire Courage as a swift action and Swift Hunter lets you deal skirmish damage to crit immune foes if they're a favored enemy, for examples of these "side benefits"), so I allow them in gestalt games. They are also still allowed by RAW, for that matter.

Now, I definitely would restrict their stacking at least such that your effective class level cannot exceed your total hit dice. From there, if you want to ban the level stacking aspect completely or allow it to plug in holes is up to you. In my last gestalt game, I strictly limited the PCs to one base class on each side and a single prestige class (which, if it required spellcasting or certain class features other than proficiencies, had to be taken on the side w/ the class that met those requirements), so I was fine with plugging in gaps since the multiclassing wouldn't be getting out of line. For example, one of my players was a Crusader//Bard with the Song of the White Raven feat (inspire as a swift, as above, and also level stacks bard and crusader levels for effective bard level in regards to inspire courage bonus). He eventually went into the Warchanter PrC on the Bard side, so the SotWR feat meant his Crusader levels were keeping him at "full Bard level" for Inspire Courage despite Warchanter not advancing it. Now...Warchanter requires Inspire Courage and I find it dumb the PrC doesn't advance it and probably would've houseruled to allow it to anyway....but didn't even need to, the PC was already covered through the feat.
If you're allowing unlimited multiclassing, you may want to just not allow the level stacking benefits of those feats at all.

A level 20 build: I'll make one using my interpretations of the gestalt rules if you want, but I think I've explained it in detail already.

 

[udalrich]

Gestalt uses fractional bab and fractional saves. Saves are classified as good saves (e.g., a sorcerer's will save) and bad saves (e.g., a sorcerer's fort save). Each level of a class gives +0.5 (good) or +1/3 (bad) to the appropriate save. The first time you take a class that has a good save, you also get a +2 bonus. If you keep the fractions but round down when you make a save, this reproduces the standard save progressions for a single classed, non-gestalt character. For example, the sorcerer will/fort progression would be

F    / W
0.33 / 2.5
0.66 / 3.0
1.0  / 3.5
1.33 / 4.0

BAB similarly grants 0.5 (bad, e.g., sorcerer), 0.75 (medium, e.g., monk) or 1.0 (full, e.g., fighter).

So a sorcerer 6//monk 6 has BAB 4.5, F/R/W 5/5/5.

Adding sorcerer1//swiftblade one grants .3/.3/.5 from sorcerer and .5/.5/.3 from swiftbade, so your saves to up to 5.5/5.5/5.5.

Your BAB increases by the the swiftblade value (0.75 or 1.0; I'm not sure what BAB progression the class has.)

For the ascetic mage feat, at each level, you take the best benefit from either class for similar abilities. So at each level, if you take a level of sorcerer or monk, you can increase your unarmed monk damage by one level. If you take a level of both classes, you still only increase it by one level. If you do not take a level in either class, then your unarmed damage does not increase and you are forever behind a pure monk in unarmed damage, even if you later take both classes at the same level.

So if you take a level of sorcerer//monk, followed by a level of fighter/wizard, you have the unarmed damage of a second level monk. If you take a level of sorcerer//fighter and then monk//wizard, you have the unarmed damage of a second level monk. (I'm ignoring that you probably don't qualify for the feat.)

 

[Binho]

Thanks for the answers! I never thought this questions would do all this work...
StreamOfTheSky, your method is equal to making two builds, just taking care to not add PrC at the same level, you explained wonderfully, there is no need to a lv 20 build. Thats easy to learn and could be accepted for the DM. But I would like to know the options, if the RAW are stronger, I would suggest it first ! If the DM complains, I would introduce your method, because it is more reasonable . But I still have some questions about it:

which, if it required spellcasting or certain class features other than proficiencies, had to be taken on the side w/ the class that met those requirements

This is some interesting point of view and a fair one. But there are some PrCs that need both sides of the gestalt to qualify. Abjurant Champion for example, it needs BAB+5 and 1lv of spellcasting. You would need a Wizard lv 10 to qualify and the proficiency would come from the other side of the gestalt anyways. I think this has to be debated at the specific case, don't you agree?

Udalrich, I'll assume that this method is the RAW, as the noble StreamOfTheSky mentioned this too. But I still don't understand a few issues (maybe I'm slow...):

So a sorcerer 6//monk 6 has BAB 4.5, F/R/W 5/5/5.

Adding sorcerer1//swiftblade one grants .3/.3/.5 from sorcerer and .5/.5/.3 from swiftbade, so your saves to up to 5.5/5.5/5.5.

According to you, the first time you get a class. you add 2 to the good save, so the count of adding sorcerer//swiftblade1 to a sorcerer6//monk6 would be the best of sorcerer (Fort .3, Ref.3, Will.5) and swiftblade (Fort.3, Ref2.5, Will2.5), leading to total saves equal to Fort 5.3, Ref7.5, Will 7.5. Am I right?

About the combo feats, that is the answer I thought it would be: Add Sorcerer and Monk levels, limited to the total level of the character.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is some interesting point of view and a fair one. But there are some PrCs that need both sides of the gestalt to qualify. Abjurant Champion for example, it needs BAB+5 and 1lv of spellcasting. You would need a Wizard lv 10 to qualify and the proficiency would come from the other side of the gestalt anyways. I think this has to be debated at the specific case, don't you agree?

Skill ranks, BAB, and the like aren't actually "class features," even though you get them from class levels. If you look in any class writeup, it will have class features and then a list of every one of them, starting with weapon and armor proficiencies. So, my rule rule was, other than proficiencies, you had to take the PrC on the side that has the required class features. Things like spellcasting, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc...

Obviously this means dual progression PrCs like Mystic Theurge are impossible to do. Which is fine, I followed the rule/suggestion in gestalt to ban dual progression PrC's.

 

[emanresu]

Hi everyone.
I was making a gestalt build and encountered some doubts, especially about prestige classes. This three points are the main issue:

1- Prestige class
I couldn't understand the form that PrCs influence the saves and attack bonus. I know that I can't fuse two PrCs so I would apreciate some exemple:
Level 1: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +0, Fort+2,Ref+2,Will+2
Level 2: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +1, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 3: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +2, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 4: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 5: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 6: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +4, Fort+5,Ref+5,Will+5
Level 7: Sorcerer7/Swiftblade1» Base Attack +5, ... *HERE COMES THE DOUBT» ????
Level 8: Sorcerer8/Cloistered Cleric1»*HERE COMES ANOTHER DOUBT

I think this is a MAD build str con dex WIS and CHA all very important, It looks like a nightmare as far as attribute points is concerned

With base books only? No Psionics? But you have Swift blade? (one of my fav prt classes) any templates, like 1/2 FEY? or 1/2 Celestial or both? think the Monk as your dominate class is crippling your build IMO, you need to many attributes to make this work well.

Favored Soul / Paladin might be a better base...armor, spells, max saves-and then some! Immunity to desease, CHA based so a cloak of charisma +6 would be nice, Slippers of battle Dancing SWEET!

If Psi is allowed look into Monk / fighter/ Psi Warrior/ Elocater get yourself a spiked chain a bunch of feats, excellent movement powers (Elo) the psi grease power and tear it up!

 

[Binho]

Hi everyone.
I was making a gestalt build and encountered some doubts, especially about prestige classes. This three points are the main issue:

1- Prestige class
I couldn't understand the form that PrCs influence the saves and attack bonus. I know that I can't fuse two PrCs so I would apreciate some exemple:
Level 1: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +0, Fort+2,Ref+2,Will+2
Level 2: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +1, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 3: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +2, Fort+3,Ref+3,Will+3
Level 4: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 5: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +3, Fort+4,Ref+4,Will+4
Level 6: Monk/Sorcerer»Base Attack +4, Fort+5,Ref+5,Will+5
Level 7: Sorcerer7/Swiftblade1» Base Attack +5, ... *HERE COMES THE DOUBT» ????
Level 8: Sorcerer8/Cloistered Cleric1»*HERE COMES ANOTHER DOUBT

I think this is a MAD build str con dex WIS and CHA all very important, It looks like a nightmare as far as attribute points is concerned

With base books only? No Psionics? But you have Swift blade? (one of my fav prt classes) any templates, like 1/2 FEY? or 1/2 Celestial or both? think the Monk as your dominate class is crippling your build IMO, you need to many attributes to make this work well.

Favored Soul / Paladin might be a better base...armor, spells, max saves-and then some! Immunity to desease, CHA based so a cloak of charisma +6 would be nice, Slippers of battle Dancing SWEET!

If Psi is allowed look into Monk / fighter/ Psi Warrior/ Elocater get yourself a spiked chain a bunch of feats, excellent movement powers (Elo) the psi grease power and tear it up!

Monk//Sorcerer are not powerful, that's why I am trying to make it stronger somehow. I like the flavor of a monk casting spells.
About the mad, it is not like that. With slippers of battle dancing and ascetic mage feat I can dump wis and str. So the stats priorities are as follow: CHA>CON>DEX=INT>STR>WIS. Actually the real important stat is CHA, because I plan to go melee, strike and finish the movement to stay out of range.

About the fractional rules, the way I posted is right? I am not convinced this is right or it would bring stratospheric saves to the game...

 

[emanresu]

Monk//Sorcerer are not powerful, that's why I am trying to make it stronger somehow. I like the flavor of a monk casting spells.
About the mad, it is not like that. With slippers of battle dancing and ascetic mage feat I can dump wis and str. So the stats priorities are as follow: CHA>CON>DEX=INT>STR>WIS. Actually the real important stat is CHA, because I plan to go melee, strike and finish the movement to stay out of range.

About the fractional rules, the way I posted is right? I am not convinced this is right or it would bring stratospheric saves to the game...

Feats, or the lack there of, are really one of the major down falls to gish builds. You as a player have to split your feats between melee and metamagic. Doing this without fighter leaves you feat starved. With this build, you need to tweak a little here and there, so you will find your self getting feats like POWER OF PERSONALITY, ascetic mage, in place of melee or a metagagic; compunding the lack of feat problem.

By the way >>if you want seek sick saves look into 2 Paladin, 3 Paladin if you want immunity to desease, Paly applies cha to all saves. Then have Hexblade (2 or 3?) this will gain you 2 things. 1st arcane res, which is, cha to all saves vs spells, 2nd is mettle. Mettle lets you ignore the secondary effects to fort and will saves. Then on other side of gestalt you pick Favored Soul for its max saves. This will gain you CHA X2 to all saves, max saves, and mettle. You will have the best saves in party, maxed BAB, d10 hit pts, and spont caster FS. Ring of evasion, vest of resistance, cloak of cha, and your ready for damn near anything

 

[Binho]

Actually it's not about to split my feats between metamagic and melee; it's about focusing in one of them and keep the other as complement.
I believe the party must have basically a tank, a damage dealer and a healer. Spells like great mighty wallop, heroic and wraithstrike combined with arcane strike, travel devotion and spring attack (and a lot of tumble!) for full flurry attacks can make this kind of gestalt build occupy the job of damage dealer, still maintaining distance.

But what is this feat POWER OF PERSONALITY? I searched at Feats – D&D Tools and didn't find any results.

Oh, another question Paragon Classes are considered prestige classes? They can be picked at first level, but advances spell casting. If this is considered a class, I can pick levels 2 and 3 to cover loss of spell cast in prestige classes like Swiftblade.