Getting Characters to Run

Dreaddisease

First Post
The group decides to loot a town infested with undead. Their plans are to approach slowly and get the main buildings and then retreat with the loot. They need to avoid a confrontation with a Lich who is much beyond their ability. But the town is infested with many mundane undead so most battles are not hard. But when they try to go for the center of town near the marketplace they turn a corner on 4 ghasts, 6 ghouls, 2 shadows and a Bodak. The battle is easy to layout. Fireball on the ghouls (good bye). Everyone fails their save vs the ghasts and start coughing up their lunches. The cleric with extra turning (smart) turns all the shadows and the last ghast left over. Now the bodak gets within range and forces a save on the main guy. Its a tough save. But they stay their ground. So the bodak gets close and that next round, averting eyes and all, they do no damage and the Bodak drops 2 guys. The rest of the battle is mopped up by the spellcasters but not after the bodak tries to smack the last fighter and rogues eyes open with his fists for a couple rounds.

Now my question to DMs is this. Do you have a rough time getting your players to flee battles where they will be outmatched? I think this one was the equivalent of a CR10 for a EL6 group. They had plenty of options to duck into houses or something to avoid the battle (as only the ghasts and shadows were paying attention).

I've run from plenty of battles as a player. In the den of a green dragon we thought it had returned (it was a dragonne in the end).
 
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Yes, I had a TPK once becasue the PCs were stupid and didn't run. Plain and simple. They were out of healing, down to about 20% HP, and they ran into a demon. The demon would have been tough on a good day. They first retreated, regrouped and then attacked. They did manage to kill the demon, but they all died in the process.

Last sunday in a game I was playing in we ran against 3 hillgiants. We should have retreated as it wasn't our fight, but we pressed on. One character died, 4 were knocked unconscience at least once, and I remained unharmed (I'm a cleric that is not good in combat).

So, ya, many times PCs don't run. Personally, I like it whren the odds are against me. I want to succeed in the battles that I shouldn't win.
 

Sometimes -and by that I mean the DM shouldn't make it a habit- it's okay to tell the players flat-out that it might be wise to run. Most DMs hesitate to do this because it's not "in-game." While you may want to keep the "meta-intervention" to a minimum, there are circumstances where it can prevent problems later. The goal is, after all, to have fun.

You don't want to do this where it's just a question of saving their strength for "the big fight" later; but if it looks like it might turn into a TPK, it's OK to warn them or offer your nickel's worth of free advice. Whether they run is -as always- up to them. If they get whalloped, at least you can give the party a smug smile & say "I did warn you guys!" :D
 

My players are pretty smart. If I described such a scene to them with the Bodak and all, and they were 6th level, they'd have fled. Actually, they probably wouldn't have been looting the town in the first place. They rarely play greedy characters. This is partially because half my players are DMs themselves and metagame a bit. They'd be running CRs in their head when I described the Bodak, and quickly conclude that they needed to create a rationale that will allow their characters to run away "in character." If they didn't know what the monster was they might attack it or stand their ground until they got a taste of its abilities, after which they'd decide they were no match and flee if the thing was truly beyond them (or scared them enough).
 

Errr... they won the battle, didn't they?

How are they supposed to know that they aren't supposed to fight when the battle is so close to thier abilities that it is winnable? Sure it is 4 CR's higher than thier effective level, but in my experience many a min/maxed party is effectively several levels higher than thier level would indicate. It is close to the limits of thier ability, but ought they not to suspect that you as a DM will test them right up to the limits of thier abilities? Isn't that standard practice? Isn't anything less considered Monte Hall?

If you want your players to flee combat, you have to do two things.

First, you have to draw clear distinctions between winnable fights and unwinnable fights. The above fight wasn't clearly unwinnable. If you really wanted them to flee you should have said, "You see a vast host of undead shambling toward you. There must be at least several score ghoulish figures, and unnatural incorporeal forms flit amongst them." Forty ghouls, twenty ghasts, and a dozen shadows would have convinced most parties of 6th level characters that its time to head for the hills/temple/nearest civilization. (And if they do win, well, they have a story to tell.) It seems to me that your encounter was chosen such that it wasn't quite overwhelming should the party choose to stay and fight, so you shouldn't complain that the party choise to stay and fight.

Second, you have to demonstrate to the party at the very beginning of the campaign that in this campaign they will occassionally be put into situations that they can't handle and will be expected to deal with those situations by some means other than combat. This is a very very important lesson to teach, IMHO. Starting out as first level characters, throw them into an encounter with something insanely overpowered. You as a DM know that you have fiated that no matter what the characters do, the creature(s) is in a fairly good mood and won't kill/eat the PC's. It is up to the PC's to realize ASAP that fighting the creature is insane, and using thier wits minimize the ill effects of encountering TBN (tm). For instance, this creature may want news or information, bribes, to rob the character, or simply to be left alone. Alternately, the creature isn't much into pursuing the PC's (or capable of long pursuit) and will tire after a short chase if the party makes a good go for it. Make the encounter absolutely overpowering so that the villain can toy with PC with no real danger of harm to himself.

I have in my time ran a party of first level characters against 100 goblin worg riders (Bandits wanting a bribe but not that interested in a fight. They subdue the characters with whips, lassos, and nets should the PC's fight, liberating them of thier best equipment. Otherwise, the PC's can negotiate for a minimal 'fee'.), a Elder Red Dragon (well fed on mastadon and mostly interested in news of the human world and recieving flattery from awed PC's. He subdues the PC's if they make a pathetic attempt at slaying him, promising to eat them, before forgetting and falling asleep. (An attempt to kill the sleeping dragon would have resulted in death, as the dragon was in no mood to be roused.)), and a group of werewolves (who cheerfully beat the party unconscious after the party attempted to ambush 'the bandits'). The latter lesson was particularly important because it tells the party that the best plan isn't always to shoot first and ask questions latter. This encourages role play, and allows you to actually get a chance to introduce your finely crafted NPC's to the party before they kill them.

Another example of this sort of play was a low level multi-solo (everyone is in the same world but party interaction is not critical) campaign I ran for while. One character wanted to play a thief. Early on, the thief had an encounter with a local street tough you accused the PC of 'holding out on him'. The PC fought, and the street tough (being 4 times his level), disarmed him and beat the crap out of him. Lesson learned, latter when the PC saw three members of a rival gang approaching, flight was considered the first option. In the course of this flight, the PC climbed a wall and jumped into a courtyard. When apprehended by the owner of the courtyard, murder was again not considered a first option. Instead, role play pursued, and it was learned that attempted murder would indeed been a very bad move - since the man who first grabbed his arm was a Prelate of a leading religion in the city.

Sometimes in order to achieve role play, you have to break out of the mold of 'murder or be murdered' that characterizes so many of the PC's actions with NPC's in D&D. If not all of your monsters consider violence with a heavily armed PC party thier first option, then your PC's will probably figure out that they have other options too. Consider at least how bad it usually turns out for creatures that start violence with heavily armed PC parties.
 
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Well the first campaign I killed all but one character with a nasty ogre that they could easily have outrun (considering he was limping). It was good. I've come close 4 times to killing a character in battles that are equivalent. I'm quickly becoming a killer DM. hehe.

They knew there were vast amounts of undead here and had a couple really close calls with wraiths, wights, morghs and others.

I did exactly what you said where i said a massive horde of them disgusting creatures. Plus the failed save at the beginning should have been a good warning.

I agree in those situations and we have had a few city-scape adventures that are nothing more than RP oppurtunities. They know to flee in those situations (not wanting to arouse unwanted attention on their party or get in the bad graces with local authorities).

Thanks for the info.
 

Dreaddisease said:
Now my question to DMs is this. Do you have a rough time getting your players to flee battles where they will be outmatched? I think this one was the equivalent of a CR10 for a EL6 group. They had plenty of options to duck into houses or something to avoid the battle (as only the ghasts and shadows were paying attention).

Not anymore. Not after a lich killed 1/3 of the party and effectively disabled another 1/3 of the party with a single Horrid Wilting spell, and sicced her planar-binding pit-fiend on the other 1/3.

They learned. Oh, they learned. "If it looks too powerful for us to beat, perhaps we should leave."
 

XP

I give experience for fleeing combat.

If the foe is exceptional, I give alot of experience.

The players know this.

So they do their 'dance' with more hazardous foes because they know - the more hazardous, the more fleeing XP. Usually in each micro-adventure (dungeon / mage tower / castle raid) i'd put in one or two of said situations.

Eg:

They make too much of a noise when trying to sneak into a castle (having killed a few guards and then the alarm is triggered). The barracks awakes and charge with their swords (no armour since they just woke, but anyway). Now, 100 people to 6.... if the players flee.... successfully (muhahaha), then they get XP... if they dont... then they play the statistics game and might die.


nuf said.

Likewise... if they ever turn a corner in a dungeon... and flee when they see the ancient dragon... they'll get XP.... but obviously the dragon would've seen them... so there is a double edge to it. The main thing is that they dont feel compelled to "get experience" by killing _EVERYTHING_.


If they fight the ancient... they will die. But they can get some cool loot and maybe kill a few other cave inhabitants(rust monstors, golems), or whatever else is down there.


-Tim
 

I'm proud to say that running away while crying like a little girl (female c, no offense intended) has prevented two separate TPKs.

I play a half-elf Rngr 1/Bard 6. She sits at the back singing encouragement, and loosing arrows which sometimes hit for damage. After a particularly nasty encounter where our barbarian was killed and the other fighters (and our cleric) were knocked unconscious, the rogue and I high-tailed it out of there. Our friends were captured, but that led to all sorts of roleplaying our next session as we tried to recover them.

Due to two stupid moves on our part however, our friends were coup-de-grased (sp?) as we watched. Oops. That's what led to the second round of running away crying like a little girl.

ah well, at least we know when to run. ;)


Alan

[Edit: Small typos]

---------------------------------
Discretion IS the better part of valor
 
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A couple of thoughts...

DD -

IMC, I set the stage even before we started play by discussing my "No Safety Net" philosophy with them. Essentially:

"The game world is a dangerous place. There will be times that you are outmatched and the best option will be to hide or run. I will play your opponents intelligently when warrented, using good tactics. If you push a bad situation or use poor tactics against smart opponents, there is a good chance that a character will die or that you will suffer a TPK. I roll combat dice in the open and will not fudge for you.

Is everyone clear with that? Is everyone O.K. with that? Good, let's start playing!"


If the PCs consistantly refuse to run or withdraw when good sense dictates they should, then you should let them have it. You don't neccessarily need to TPK them...I think capturing them and taking away their toys, subjecting them to public humiliation (in the game world) or other RBDM tactics are much more fun!

~ Old One
 

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